Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

If it's not ZDoom, it goes here.

Are retro shooters here to stay or are they a bubble?

They are a new market that is here to stay
23
64%
They are a fad and people will get sick of them
13
36%
 
Total votes : 36

Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby PermaNoob » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:04 pm

Honestly, I'd argue that "retro shooters" never actually went away. People just didn't want them for a while, and now public opinion has shifted back in favor of them. It's interesting to see how fragmented people's opinions are in this thread about the various "classic FPS" sacred cows. This whole pageNinja edit:the previous page is basically just "You know, I didn't like that game but I liked how this game did..." "Really? I dislike that but I do like how this other game does..." etc. :P

Also, for what it's worth, Dark Souls isn't nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. I find both Doom and Quake to be harder. On a very basic, abstract level, they are somewhat similar: enemies can kill you in a short amount of time, and gameplay is based around dodging incoming attacks. A major difference is that the aforementioned two have quicksave/load, but DS doesn't, which means it's not a good game for people lacking time (and time is money, as we all know).

As with anything popular, ignore the annoying fans. Example: look at any youtube comments about Doom mods.

Rachael wrote:God forbid someone doesn't have 48 hours per day to dedicate to "gitting gud" in a freaking video game.

Seriously - if this is going to be your attitude you might as well just turn around and walk away from here. Gaming attracts all sorts of personalities and if "casuals" bother you then you really need to take a long hard look at your life because whether you like it or not, one day you will become one of those "casuals" due to actually having to live, and you know, pay the bills.
Emphasis mine
I don't want to start shit, but this attitude is just as obnoxiously condescending as the "git gud" crowd. Whether it was your intention or not, the implication here is that anyone who plays difficult games is either a child or still living with their parents because they have "48 hours per day for getting gud". Tone is difficult to ascertain via text, but half the burden of understanding lies upon the one writing, so if that wasn't your point it would be nice to clarify that.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Matt » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:04 pm

I don't want to start shit, but this attitude is just as obnoxiously condescending as the "git gud" crowd. ...
As the author of GZDoom's most notoriously high-context difficulty mod, I ask you to reread what you quoted. I think it was quite fairly directed at the people who denigrate casual gaming as inherently not being authentic, as opposed to people who merely enjoy harder games without attributing any moral significance to it.

Seconding Graf re: Wolfenstein, plus the movement always made me super motion sick. (Though Ion Maiden does too and frankly it's a good way to keep my playing time reasonably short...)
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Rachael » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:31 pm

To clarify: I have no issue with games being difficult. I just am vehemently against people who believe that gaming is diluted "because of casuals". If you don't like it don't fucking play those games. Period.

You shouldn't have to be a hardcore 48-hour-per-day gamer to enjoy games. And if me saying that rustles your jimmies, then you have very serious issues.

Also, more often than not, I find that people take the stance of "stupid casuals ruined gaming" to cover up their own insecurities, by pretending to be a great gamer, when it's not something that actually impresses people. (After all, "everyone" is a great gamer, rite? Why you so worried about it bruh? What've you got to lose?)
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Graf Zahl » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:40 pm

Rachael wrote:"stupid casuals ruined gaming"



Nah, that's nonsense. In reality it's some brain-dead suits sitting around the table, discussing how to attract even more casual gamers, without actually having a clue what gamers want from a game.

It's the executives who run things into the ground.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Rachael » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:43 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Nah, that's nonsense. In reality it's some brain-dead suits sitting around the table, discussing how to attract even more casual gamers, without actually having a clue what gamers want from a game.

It's the executives who run things into the ground.

If only so-called "Hardcore Gamers" ever had the ability to think more than 2 equally brain-dead thoughts at a time, they wouldn't make such stupid assumptions about it.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby zrrion the insect » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:37 pm

The executives are the true filthy casuals confirmed.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Kinsie » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:22 am

Graf Zahl wrote:
zrrion the insect wrote:I guess aside from the moving geometry
Some of this can be done with portals and polyobjects, but it would make at least one engine dev cry.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby zrrion the insect » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:58 am

tie together a bunch of flat sprites then, that should do it.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby PermaNoob » Wed Mar 21, 2018 4:15 pm

Rachael wrote:To clarify: I have no issue with games being difficult. I just am vehemently against people who believe that gaming is diluted "because of casuals". If you don't like it don't fucking play those games. Period.


Believe me, I perfectly understand that. I got in an argument a few months ago with someone who was insisting that the new Mario game was absolute shit because it was "too easy", and seemed genuinely confused that I was able to enjoy it. Christ.

Back on topic: now that I think about it, does "retro shooter" even mean anything anymore? I've seen people bill Wolfenstein:TNO as a "retro shooter" simply because it has healthpacks. STRAFE was called a retro shooter because it had ugly graphics, despite playing nothing like and looking far worse than the games it claimed to be inspired by. Honestly, it feels like "retro shooter" is just a euphemism for "Serious Sam clone" or "low-effort art assets", with only a few genuine articles like Ion Maiden.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Arctangent » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:11 pm

PermaNoob wrote:Honestly, it feels like "retro shooter" is just a euphemism for "Serious Sam clone" ... with only a few genuine articles like Ion Maiden.

I mean at this point Serious Sam is a retro shooter by nearly every definition of the phrase, so ...
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby Jeimuzu73 » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:57 am

Arctangent wrote:
PermaNoob wrote:Honestly, it feels like "retro shooter" is just a euphemism for "Serious Sam clone" ... with only a few genuine articles like Ion Maiden.

I mean at this point Serious Sam is a retro shooter by nearly every definition of the phrase, so ...

To be more precise, Serious Sam is in a sub-genre of retro shooter which I like to call 'wave shooter'. Very basic, linear and open level design with an emphasis on fighting hundreds of spawning enemies, as opposed to the more structured levels of the past decade. Painkiller and Hard Reset also fit the mold of wave shooters.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby PermaNoob » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:06 pm

Arctangent wrote:
PermaNoob wrote:Honestly, it feels like "retro shooter" is just a euphemism for "Serious Sam clone" ... with only a few genuine articles like Ion Maiden.

I mean at this point Serious Sam is a retro shooter by nearly every definition of the phrase, so ...


Well, I know it's old enough, but eventually we'll reach a point where everything before & including Crysis is considered a "retro shooter" and that label will no longer be useful. Hell, it's already kinda useless. Some people think "Doom", some people think "Quakeworld", and others clearly think "Serious Sam".
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby zrrion the insect » Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:44 pm

We should just go back to calling them doom clones.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby insightguy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 pm

I have to ask, Retro shooter in what way? Gameplay? Graphics? Level design? because, example, Doom 2016 was considered a "retro shooter" (though I've heard the term "throwback shooter" too) to pretty much everyone and goes as far away as you can from graphics of an indie retro shooter as you can, is there some sort of criteria we can categorize for this? Off the top of my head:

"Retro shooter" - "retro in graphics, gameplay and level design"
"throwback shooter" - "retro in gameplay and level design"
"Indie shooter" - "retro in graphics" :P

zrrion the insect wrote:We should just go back to calling them doom clones.

this is starting to feel like the rougelike craze all over again where every game uses "rougelike" even if it barely has anything to do with the original rouge.
Last edited by insightguy on Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are retro shooters a growing market or merely a fad?

Postby leileilol » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:38 pm

It's a generational thing for both the developers and their intended audience. "Fauxstalgia dorksploitation" as i'd like to think of it as.

ROTT '13 was the last chance i'll ever give them. off damn kids lawn you had one job etc. and I believe the "success" of ROTT '13 is what's sparked the flames of these so called retro shooters. The unanimous praise of SS3BFE as some next-gen Doom were early warning signs.

also it wasn't until the steam rerelease that the terrible Dark Ages game finally had positive reviews just for being "an old school classic". yeah a generational thing etc. Those are words I have never seen associated with Dark Ages until this decade.

it'll pass eventually, until the next wave of revisionist history with loads of namedropping in promotion anyway. Prepare to see the words "RETRO OLD SCHOOL LOVE LETTER TO HALO 2".


Of all the attempts i've seen it's only Ion Maiden getting it right so far, probably because it helps to have well-matured adults that properly understand their source material to design your throwback.
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