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Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:12 am
by Cacodemon345
I moved back from Linux after MIDI support wasn't working properly for Wine AT ALL and due to the lack of proper programs and due to the confusing directory structure. Linux distros like GoboLinux instead use different directory hierarchy that is more in line with Windows. There is also a high amount of Linux distros and desktop environments that makes developing software for them problematic and also for the lack of standardization.

And I starting to think people are moving over to smartphones because their OSs is more user-friendly and contains a lot of apps for them. I honestly don't believe Linux will ever be important for consumers and people has to tolerate Windows because most apps was developed for them.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:41 am
by Kinsie
Cacodemon345 wrote:I moved back from Linux after MIDI support wasn't working properly for Wine AT ALL
Audio on Linux has always been... troublesome.

Cacodemon345 wrote:And I starting to think people are moving over to smartphones because their OSs is more user-friendly and contains a lot of apps for them. I honestly don't believe Linux will ever be important for consumers and people has to tolerate Windows because most apps was developed for them.
While "20## IS THE YEAR OF LINUX ON THE DESKTOP!!!" will continue to be an amusing running joke, the Linux kernel sits at the heart of Android, which is in an awful lot of smartphones these days, so in a way it has propagated beyond anyone's wildest dreams... but at what cost?

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:30 am
by R4L
ramon.dexter wrote:
R4L wrote:
On top of that, the fact that I cannot just move a file in the GUI to anywhere else other than my home folder because of permissions, makes me pretty frustrated.


Yeah, one of bad habits from windows based system. Actually, the linux way is much better - why you want to allow user to put files ANYWHERE? That makes mess, also user has to be treated like total BFU with zero knowledge in computers - with this, the limitation to home folder makes sense, because the user cannot make a mess.

The only thing you have to wrap around is that you home folder = C: in windows systems. Nothing more and nothing less.

come on, linux is not that complicated - all tutorials and everything is in english. Look to it from the other side - I'm not native english speaker, so I have to translate it prior to reading it.

When today I wanted to test some features on gzdoom devbuild, I ended with compiling everything from source, because you cannot download precompiled devbuild for linux. And I was successfull. So I can advise only one thing - do not trow it away when problems come, but chew through the problems.


I've gotten much better with using it. My main point was that for simple things as moving a file where I want, I should not have to do it in elevated terminal EVERY TIME. Maybe the Windows way is inferior to you, but to me it is not. It is simple and gets me on my way.

And the only clutter I have to worry about is my own. That's just how it is on any OS. Linux can get really messy too.

Marisa Kirisame wrote:TBH on Linux there is also a problem about user data folders. You could have a program store its data in a hidden folder on your home, in a folder inside .config (which is the currently enforced standard, at least by the freedesktop people), in a folder inside .local/share, or god forbid, in a folder on your home that's NOT hidden (I'm looking at you, UT4).


This.

I mean, agree to disagree at this point. You like Linux more, I like Windows more. :mrgreen:

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:05 am
by Caligari87
R4L wrote:My main point was that for simple things as moving a file where I want, I should not have to do it in elevated terminal EVERY TIME.
The counterpoint is that if you're constantly moving files to places that need elevated permissions, you're doing something very wrong. If by chance you are working on a system issue that requires fiddling under the hood for extended periods, then log in as root until you're done and then get safely back to normal user mode as quick as possible.

Alternatively, if you want to do it the windows way, just log in as root by default or elevate your normal account to root permissions permanently, and accept the possible consequences (just like you would using the administrator account on Windows as your daily driver, which most people seem to do).

8-)

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:19 am
by R4L
Caligari87 wrote:
R4L wrote:My main point was that for simple things as moving a file where I want, I should not have to do it in elevated terminal EVERY TIME.
The counterpoint is that if you're constantly moving files to places that need elevated permissions, you're doing something very wrong. If by chance you are working on a system issue that requires fiddling under the hood for extended periods, then log in as root until you're done and then get safely back to normal user mode as quick as possible.

Alternatively, if you want to do it the windows way, just log in as root by default or elevate your normal account to root permissions permanently, and accept the possible consequences (just like you would using the administrator account on Windows as your daily driver, which most people seem to do).

8-)


This is what I do now when I have to. Like I said, I've gotten better lol. I meant in general btw... like moving things to the desktop. When installing Dark Places for example, I can't just drag and drop to the desktop.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:39 am
by Caligari87
R4L wrote:I meant in general btw... like moving things to the desktop. When installing Dark Places for example, I can't just drag and drop to the desktop.
That sounds... broken and not at all right. Your desktop is in your home folder and so shouldn't ask for permission because the user has permission for everything in their home folder.

At risk of turning this into a tech support thread, what Linux are you running? I've explored many branches of the Debian Linux family tree and I've never had to elevate privileges for stuff like that.

8-)

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:55 pm
by Matt
It is possible to mess up ownership of a folder or drive in unexpected ways, as I recently found out with my backup HDD.

Fixed it by copypasting some stuff on the internet (something something sudo chown chmod something... I should note that I understood what I was looking at in principle and could figure out the gist of what it did before I copypasted it, I just never remember the exact commands and parameters off the top of my head! (still beats going through the registry for any reason though))

EDIT: bold added per the security discussion below

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:31 pm
by Cacodemon345
Another problem with Linux/MacOS is that many users still believe themselves to be safe against malware when they are not. This has led to problems with those users.
And I still can't believe most distros doesn't have proper firewall set and on.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:48 pm
by Graf Zahl
Those people are indeed the biggest menace here. It's truly unbelievable how often I hear "This is based on Unix and therefore secure by design".

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:41 pm
by R4L
Caligari87 wrote:
R4L wrote:I meant in general btw... like moving things to the desktop. When installing Dark Places for example, I can't just drag and drop to the desktop.
That sounds... broken and not at all right. Your desktop is in your home folder and so shouldn't ask for permission because the user has permission for everything in their home folder.

At risk of turning this into a tech support thread, what Linux are you running? I've explored many branches of the Debian Linux family tree and I've never had to elevate privileges for stuff like that.

8-)


This was on Debian Pixel. I installed it because it's exactly the same as the Raspberry Pi, so I was more familiar with it. I was trying to make an icon for Dark Places and have it on the desktop, and I got it to work after following some tutorials.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:31 am
by Cacodemon345
Graf Zahl wrote:Those people are indeed the biggest menace here. It's truly unbelievable how often I hear "This is based on Unix and therefore secure by design".

It is just stupid.

Also, I hate the "blame the user" mentality and the fact that most devs for anything based off Linux like Android remain reactive instead of proactive with no attempt to fix the issues.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:56 am
by printz
I like GNU/Linux because it's often much quicker to start up than Windows on the same machine, and I like its engineering elegance with package manager and the uniformity of compilation tools (configure + make, or cmake + make). Certainly much less historical mess than on Windows.

What I dislike about its easiest to use (for me so far) distro, Ubuntu, is that it overall feels less stable than the commercial OS (Windows and macOS), prone to upgrade failures. It's also full of annoying security policies, such as not mounting external disks at startup (really annoying if you have Dropbox on another disk, you need to edit some file) or Chrome keyrings likewise. Or the Grub boot manager cheekily sets Ubuntu the default OS (you again need to edit some obscure file). Or that fullscreen gaming has been a lot of trouble for the multi monitor desktop
when I tried it... Windows has no such problems.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:06 am
by Graf Zahl
Cacodemon345 wrote:Also, I hate the "blame the user" mentality and the fact that most devs for anything based off Linux like Android remain reactive instead of proactive with no attempt to fix the issues.


Yes, that's indeed a problem. I think it also says volumes that even after 10 years Android hasn't managed to implement a working system update scheme.

In all honesty, I think the only way for Linux to have some success on the desktop is for some company creating a distribution that implements a fully featured desktop OS on top of it - by that I mean that everything relevant for a smooth desktop experience is cleanly integrated into the whole package - not something like 'You may have GTK3 or not, if not you may have GTK2, but don't depend on it.' And the same can be said about other subsystems as well. Yes, I know that such an undetaking would fly in the face of many Linux enthusiasts but it's really the only way that it could ever be marketed as a Windows replacement. In its current state it's just too uncertain for software to assume what packages they can depend on, especially if it comes to users who just stubbornly refuse to use anything that may depend on the one package they may hate for whatever stupid reason. Yes, I have met people like this. Some for reasons unknown insist that all GUI software they use must be built with Qt, for example, and stuff like that. I cannot say how widespread such attitudes are, but it should be cleat that this makes Linux GUI a rather unattractive platform to develop for. Not surprisingly, at my current employer Linux - which is used for web development - mainly means bash & vim. Give that to any regular person and they'll run away in panic... :twisted:

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:12 am
by Cacodemon345
Graf Zahl wrote:
Yes, that's indeed a problem. I think it also says volumes that even after 10 years Android hasn't managed to implement a working system update scheme.

In all honesty, I think the only way for Linux to have some success on the desktop is for some company creating a distribution that implements a fully featured desktop OS on top of it - by that I mean that everything relevant for a smooth desktop experience is cleanly integrated into the whole package

On the matter of Android, I think it will never get a proper system update scheme because of the high amount of vendor branding varieties.

On the matter of Linux, I think people will only move to Linux if the AAA games ever get ported to Linux.

Also, another problem with Linux is that it is less resistant to hard reboots and when files corrupted by that gets removed, nothing gets revealed until another hard reboot corrupts critical system files, necessitating reinstalls and causing long server downtimes.

Re: Linux is not actually newbie-friendly

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:19 am
by Marisa Kirisame
printz wrote:Or that fullscreen gaming has been a lot of trouble for the multi monitor desktop
when I tried it...


That is exclusively a SDL1 issue and it's handled properly in SDL2.