That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

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insightguy
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by insightguy »

Graf Zahl wrote:I'd rather code stuff I get paid for in a reliable fashion.
I think this is why the games industry has ended up going the direction it has gone in.

Not you, I kinda just had an epiffany with this statement. AAA has unintentionally (or intentionally) made making games expensive as hell with graphics that begin to dip out of the uncanny valley and marketing that puts most other companies to shame. Hell, when you require 5,000,000 copies to break even, you are going to push for more "scummier" ways to break that even with less copies. Not excusing any shitty practices, just pointing out something I observed

The only way for this to decrease is for these companies to curb their "expectations"... That, I'm not sure how it would even be possible at this point.


Also @Rachel, if this is going to devolve into an argument of the philosophy of entertainment and if legislating it is important or not, then can we please lock it down before someone get's banned?
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RiboNucleic Asshat
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by RiboNucleic Asshat »

I find it interesting that everyone is slamming Overwatch and other recent games for this, but nobody is saying anything about the games which essentially invented lootboxes: TF2 and CS:GO. I've hated that shit for ages, ever since I got suckered into it several years back (I'm not exactly the strongest-willed person out there). Everyone uses pictures of Overwatch boxes, talks about Overwatch, etc, yet it seems like everyone has conveniently forgotten that CS:GO items were being used for literal, completely undisguised gambling and scams! The weirdest part is, in lots of places, people will complain about lootboxes but then say "Oh but they're one of the good ones" when asked about Valve's shit.

Additionally, while I do enjoy the convenience that Steam provides, I kinda wish that Steam was nothing more than a glorified chat client/friends list deal and games were still sold from their own storefronts. I don't want Valve to become the Comcast of gaming, i.e. you must go through them because no alternative exists, and they are free to screw you as they please.
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insightguy
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by insightguy »

Honestly, I think people blame valve less for the gambling and scams because it was third parties that cracked down on it. They should have done something, correct, but the problem came from a third party, not them.

I think people are more forgiving because
  • all Items can be bought in the steam market
  • With regards to TF2, community Items are allowed, making it a neat way for smaller people to get a leg into the industry
  • With regards to CS:GO, what can you actually earn with skins asides looking like a dumbass? If it does not mess with balance, Is is really that bad?
(note that I said more forgiving, not completely forgiven.)

And alternatives do exist, but then again it's not like GOG is trying to make their own client... oh wait. GOG galaxy.
There is an alternative, but it's a slow start.
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RiboNucleic Asshat
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by RiboNucleic Asshat »

insightguy wrote:
  • With regards to CS:GO, what can you actually earn with skins asides looking like a dumbass? If it does not mess with balance, Is is really that bad?
Thing is, you can say this exact thing about Overwatch skins, but apparently it's evil for Blizzard and benevolent for Valve to do. The double-standard bothers me more than anything.
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insightguy
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by insightguy »

PermaNoob wrote:
insightguy wrote:
  • With regards to CS:GO, what can you actually earn with skins asides looking like a dumbass? If it does not mess with balance, Is is really that bad?
Thing is, you can say this exact thing about Overwatch skins, but apparently it's evil for Blizzard and benevolent for Valve to do. The double-standard bothers me more than anything.
and with the previous point, can you buy what skin you want or is it all lootbox only? Genuine question because that makes a world of difference.
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by RiboNucleic Asshat »

insightguy wrote:
PermaNoob wrote:
insightguy wrote:
  • With regards to CS:GO, what can you actually earn with skins asides looking like a dumbass? If it does not mess with balance, Is is really that bad?
Thing is, you can say this exact thing about Overwatch skins, but apparently it's evil for Blizzard and benevolent for Valve to do. The double-standard bothers me more than anything.
and with the previous point, can you buy what skin you want or is it all lootbox only? Genuine question because that makes a world of difference.
Right, I forgot about the marketplace. Thing is, I'd say that's more in the middle because you can't buy the skins directly from Valve, someone else has to unbox it first; You can't truly buy skins, you just defer the die roll to someone else. As a result, prices get grossly inflated. It's fucking ridiculous that a goddamn virtual gun paintjob can sell for thousands of dollars.
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Chris
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Chris »

insightguy wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:I'd rather code stuff I get paid for in a reliable fashion.
I think this is why the games industry has ended up going the direction it has gone in.

Not you, I kinda just had an epiffany with this statement. AAA has unintentionally (or intentionally) made making games expensive as hell with graphics that begin to dip out of the uncanny valley and marketing that puts most other companies to shame.
I think it's actually the opposite. It's far too easy to make and release games for cheap, it's flooding the market so that even if you're able to produce something of decent quality, you get drowned under tons of crap and can't get the visibility you need. You have the likes of Unity and Unreal Engine providing access to powerful game engines for free/cheap, and asset stores with premade content that allow you to spit out a game in days (and throw it on early access without having to finish it first). A similar thing happened with mobile, and it's happening with Steam. There's a reason many indie devs are saying how well their games are selling on the Switch, even compared to the PC, because the system is less saturated with junk.

The success of games like Minecraft, PUBG, and Hellblade show you don't have to have an inflated budget to make a good profitable game (even if you focus on graphical fidelity, as in the case of Hellblade; I wouldn't be surprised if Kingdom Come: Deliverance may also see success). The problem is being in the right place at the right time so your little unknown project can get the attention it needs. Without being an established name like EA, or having an established brand like Star Wars, it's pretty difficult to get enough people to look.
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Arctangent
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Arctangent »

PermaNoob wrote:Right, I forgot about the marketplace. Thing is, I'd say that's more in the middle because you can't buy the skins directly from Valve, someone else has to unbox it first; You can't truly buy skins, you just defer the die roll to someone else. As a result, prices get grossly inflated. It's fucking ridiculous that a goddamn virtual gun paintjob can sell for thousands of dollars.
I think it's a bit charming, honestly. I mean, imagine making something that people ( as in, private individuals ) would earnestly price at twenty thousand when it really didn't cost all that much to make, and similar things are only worth less than a dollar individually. There's a story there, and while this one may be a pretty exceptional one it's still not exactly uncommon for similarly limited pieces to build up stories of their own.
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Freaklore1
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Freaklore1 »

Gaming in the 90s and early 2000s definitely put more focus on creativity and contents than what we have with certain AAA games today.

A fews exemple i would give are :

Spiderman 2000 + Spiderman 2 Enter Electro VS the more modern spiderman games.

Those early games on PS1+N64 felt like complete game at least to the standard of that era of gaming,with a story mode,training mode and bonus contents like additional costumes,characters bios,collectable comics and cheat codes.

The newer games still have to some extent a certain amounts of bonus contents like costumes,but now instead of having a complete costume collection on the release version,some costumes are sold in dlc packs.

Another exemple would be...the COD series,going from the original trilogy to the entries that came after,its a good exemple to show how money making tactics evolved troughout the years.

The original Call of Duty games were not focused on DLC and felt more like classic games by design,then MW1 came and introduced additional multiplayers maps as DLC,this divided the playerbase because you needed to buy those dlc maps if you wanted to play with those who also bought those.

Things went on like this for the next entries,until Black Ops 2 came out,wich introduced additional weapons camos,sight reticles and calling card as paid dlc.

Then Ghost came out and introduced even more stuffs like dlc characters,dlc weapons,dlc wolf skin for dog,dlc announcer....

Then finally Advanced Warfare introduced loot boxes.

So you can see a constant evolution in shady money making tactics over the years,so the question we should ask ourvselves is...whats next ?
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Cacodemon345 »

Man, biggest thread I ever seen in my life.

Literally, all the loot box shit started with EA. EA put on really high amounts of price on in-game characters.
And agree what Graf said here. I don't even give the slightest amount of money to them, because they would be inspired to earn more money and put on and lock some features behind purchase.

As more and more games get released in the coming years, expect more money-making tactics here and there in the game.
We might need another crash so all the money sharks go away for a while so the people actually interested in game development might actually make headway.
Hope it happens indeed.
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Arctangent »

Cacodemon345 wrote:Literally, all the loot box shit started with EA.
what

did you mean "shit loot boxes" instead because that's ... still not true at all but it's closer at least
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Cacodemon345 »

No, I didn't mean shit loot boxes. I meant all of those loot box legistation started with EA's Star Wars.
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insightguy
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by insightguy »

Cacodemon345 wrote:No, I didn't mean shit loot boxes. I meant all of those loot box legistation started with EA's Star Wars.
It did, but it was some the "last cut of a thousand cuts" rather than "THE SINGLE MOST HEINOUS THING THAT DESTROYED LOOTBOXES"
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by Minigunner »

Lootboxes for cosmetic items are acceptable, granted there's some oversight over the market. However, lootboxes for critical gameplay items are completely freakin' stupid and consumer-unfriendly. The latter is what got all the shit stirred with EA Battlefront 2.
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Re: That loot box legislation... let's talk about it

Post by YukiHerz »

If a game's progression is based around lootboxes (Destiny, Battlefront 2'17) then that game is trash and the people behind it deserve all the hate they're getting.

I'm overjoyed when I hear things like CDPR and Ryozo Tsujimoto of the Monster Hunter team talking things straight, with the later even stating that he wants people to play the game and enjoying the challenge instead of being able to pay to skip the game, I think everyone outside the publishing houses could agree with him there.
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