Is the Pistol really worthless?

[Clocky]

Just made this to kill time and because I have my account activated... Now, is the pistol a ery bad weapon? I use it in multiplayer quite a bit, even in survival or co-op, even if I already have the Chaingun, for me, it looks good enough to use, and in my honest opinion, I love its firing sound, it makes both the Chaingun and the Pistol a good overall weapon in my opinion. Another thi ng is, is the Super Shotgun overused regardless of mods or vanilla Doom? one day in a yesterday in a deathmatch I pickted up a Super Shotgun from someone I took down and then shortly after, I get a 6 or 7 kill streak, getting that cool voice the anouncer says after Incredible, I use it only situationally though, not my main weapon besides the Plas.ma Rifle, what do you vthink? Also one last question, whar caliber does the Chaingun and Pistol use?

[isaacpop23]

Pistol: The Chaingun is literally a fast pistol, both are hit-scan, both can do 5, 10, or 15 damage, and I *think* that they have the same accuracy pattern.

SSG: In regards to vanilla, it is used quite a bit more than the other weapons. It has a high dps (more than the Chaingun's) while using a common source of ammo(making it more accessible than the Plasma Gun). It's easy to hit with as it's hit-scan (Another hit to the PG), and has a steady rhythm allowing for ducking behind cover between shots without losing dps (contrary to the CG and PG which have to have a direct line of sight the entire time). It doesn't harm you so there's no worry about your distance (a minus for the RL), And lastly in the things I can think of, while it cannot stun lock enemies, a point blank shot will consistently stun them; so if you have an Arch-Vile that you need to stop, the SSG is the way to go.

Caliber: I don't know caliber measurements. I'd imagine fairly big if it can make a bullet puff on the wall the size of your face.

[phantombeta]

Eh. I'd say the "clips" are just abstractions of normal bullet ammo. There's no reason at all for a pistol to fire the same calibre as the chaingun.
In fact, a pistol firing a calibre used in a machinegun would likely be inaccurate and have too much recoil* to be usable, and a machinegun in a pistol calibre would be too underpowered.

Also, Doom is full of wrong terminology. The "clips" are actually magazines, and the "Chaingun" is actually more like a machinegun with rotating barrels. (If it fired faster it could be considered a minigun)

* Look at videos of people shooting .500 S&W revolvers or .50 Desert Eagles (Search specifically for ".50 Desert Eagle". There's Desert Eagles chambered in a bunch of different calibres). High calibre pistols have HUGE recoil.

[Clocky]

Eh. I'd say the "clips" are just abstractions of normal bullet ammo. There's no reason at all for a pistol to fire the same calibre as the chaingun.
In fact, a pistol firing a calibre used in a machinegun would likely be inaccurate and have too much recoil* to be usable, and a machinegun in a pistol calibre would be too underpowered.

Also, Doom is full of wrong terminology. The "clips" are actually magazines, and the "Chaingun" is actually more like a machinegun with rotating barrels. (If it fired faster it could be considered a minigun)

* Look at videos of people shooting .500 S&W revolvers or .50 Desert Eagles (Search specifically for ".50 Desert Eagle". There's Desert Eagles chambered in a bunch of different calibres). High calibre pistols have HUGE recoil.

In Hideous Destructor, and after re-playing it, Ive imagined the CG using four magazines instead of a single large kinda C mag like magazine, but I understand what youre saying, ive seen people saying that it was 10MM ammunition, though im not sure about that, also I think that the chaingun's first person sprite showing the barrel not moving (due to lack of frames ofc) and the pickup sprite showing a barrel from the top, I think that theres, in the middle, a tube connected to the weapons basee and also to the large flat cylinder that rotates the other barrels which might not be connected to vthe fat cylinder, that the mulytiple barrels could possibly be making the weapon kind of realistically accuratez? And since it takes a few miliseconds to fire its next shot, that might mean that the barel(s) is or are rotating. I understand the abreviations of ammotypes from Doom, but I think that I just interpreted accidentally what youvge meant of a machine gun with rptating barrels...

[Clocky]

Pistol: The Chaingun is literally a fast pistol, both are hit-scan, both can do 5, 10, or 15 damage, and I *think* that they have the same accuracy pattern.

SSG: In regards to vanilla, it is used quite a bit more than the other weapons. It has a high dps (more than the Chaingun's) while using a common source of ammo(making it more accessible than the Plasma Gun). It's easy to hit with as it's hit-scan (Another hit to the PG), and has a steady rhythm allowing for ducking behind cover between shots without losing dps (contrary to the CG and PG which have to have a direct line of sight the entire time). It doesn't harm you so there's no worry about your distance (a minus for the RL), And lastly in the things I can think of, while it cannot stun lock enemies, a point blank shot will consistently stun them; so if you have an Arch-Vile that you need to stop, the SSG is the way to go.

Caliber: I don't know caliber measurements. I'd imagine fairly big if it can make a bullet puff on the wall the size of your face.

I think that you might be right about the pistol accuracy, fired kinda semi automatic with your mouse with a puse of one second seems to fix the spread kinrd of like the Chaingun but having to take your gfinger off the trigger for a second thus making the pistol kinda risky if youre in an open area...

[Matt]

Theoretically you can save yourself a bullet by plinking away at a distant target with pinpoint precision.

Practically, that not-so-little lag between +fire and PISFA0 combined with the random, inertialess movement of the monsters means that I generally end up spending even more bullets trying to do that than if I'd just gone to the chaingun and accepted that half my shots would go wild.

In combat, this leaves us with those situations where you've got a stationary enemy far away that isn't moving anywhere anytime soon and is also somehow such a total non-threat that you can just kinda stand there gradually plinking away at it. This usually means chaingunners and arachnotrons that are behind a barrier just low enough to let them target you but not low enough to let their attack pass over.

Beyond that, the only thing the pistol is typically good for is hitting shootable switches that you can't reach with your fist.


Chaingun has the lowest DPS of all the weapons besides the fist and pistol (and, when you count maximum ammo capacity, the lowest damage potential overall), but can instantly start painlocking anything weaker than a hellknight. It's my go-to weapon in case of ambush.


My own headcanon about (vanilla) Doom: the chaingun is actually a specialized space infantry weapon, intentionally using low-powered (caseless!) pistol rounds firing at a low rate with cyclic barrels, intended to work in a vacuum without overheating too quickly. That's all I could come up with to explain why they'd use the same rounds and do the same damage.


And yes ssg is op... would be nice to play dm where the SSG were replaced with a random one of shotgun, chaingun and RL and to keep things reasonably paced all health were halved.

[isaacpop23]

Chaingun has the lowest DPS of all the weapons besides the fist and pistol (and, when you count maximum ammo capacity, the lowest damage potential overall)

I thought it had a higher dps than the standard shotgun, or at least it certainly feels that way to me. It's just the rhythm of the SG and the one-shotting of imp class things that made it more favorable than the CG.

I'm sure the SG has more damage total at full capacity though.

[Matt]

I'll have to check...

All bullets are the same, so let's just count bullets.

https://zdoom.org/wiki/Classes:Chaingun
instant start and stop time
4 tics per bullet

https://zdoom.org/wiki/Classes:Shotgun
entire fire sequence 37 tics not including A_Refire frame
7 bullets per shot
37/7= ~5.3 tics per bullet

...guess you're right! :O
(no wonder I love the chaingun so much more than the shotgun in deathmatch...and I just thought my aim sucked!)


SG still has more output potential from ammo though, which is probably what I was remembering:
7*50 = 350 bullets
1*200 = 200 bullets

shotgunguy drops 4*7=28 bullets
zombieman drops 5 bullets

your regular shell pickup is 4*7=28 bullets
your regular clip pickup is 10 bullets

for SSG change 7 to 10 (20 bullets fired from 2 shells)

[Nevander]

Pistol is still very useful for shooting switches and conserving ammo against Zombiemen and Shotgunners in easier levels/early game.

[Clocky]

Theoretically you can save yourself a bullet by plinking away at a distant target with pinpoint precision.

Practically, that not-so-little lag between +fire and PISFA0 combined with the random, inertialess movement of the monsters means that I generally end up spending even more bullets trying to do that than if I'd just gone to the chaingun and accepted that half my shots would go wild.

In combat, this leaves us with those situations where you've got a stationary enemy far away that isn't moving anywhere anytime soon and is also somehow such a total non-threat that you can just kinda stand there gradually plinking away at it. This usually means chaingunners and arachnotrons that are behind a barrier just low enough to let them target you but not low enough to let their attack pass over.

Beyond that, the only thing the pistol is typically good for is hitting shootable switches that you can't reach with your fist.


Chaingun has the lowest DPS of all the weapons besides the fist and pistol (and, when you count maximum ammo capacity, the lowest damage potential overall), but can instantly start painlocking anything weaker than a hellknight. It's my go-to weapon in case of ambush.


My own headcanon about (vanilla) Doom: the chaingun is actually a specialized space infantry weapon, intentionally using low-powered (caseless!) pistol rounds firing at a low rate with cyclic barrels, intended to work in a vacuum without overheating too quickly. That's all I could come up with to explain why they'd use the same rounds and do the same damage.


And yes ssg is op... would be nice to play dm where the SSG were replaced with a random one of shotgun, chaingun and RL and to keep things reasonably paced all health were halved.

I did nt k now about the shootable switches part, are all switches, eye,lever,buttons, shootable with any other weapon? Are they all shootable by default? And what were you talling about the lag with +fire and that other thinh? And if Im correct (apologies if not) you being vthe developer of the add-on "Hideous Destructor", what went in your mind to think that rhe Chaingun can hold xa total of four magazines instead of a single, large box with a belt kind of like the pickup itself shows that? Do you think that the other weapons youve included in your mod could be at least a bit realisric? Such as the Rocket Launcer, could it be loaded like a shotgun, or is there a cylinderon the other side that one cannot see? Do you think that the BFG 9000's "handle" isnt actually a handle but are two lever-like sticks that you lean against your shoulder like a stock to soften the crecoil ?

[Matt]

Switches are specifically defined by the mapper as to whether they can be shot to be activated. Most hitscans and projectiles should be able to do this.

The Vulcanette multi-mag setup was developed back when I was still hoping to minimize ammo types and maximize interchangeability of ammo, and also I didn't really know how belts worked.

I pretty much assume that all loading mechanisms are somewhere on the underside of the gun, thus conveniently requiring no changes to the HUD sprite.

That said, I have given exactly zero real thought to what all that stuff on the BFG is. Perhaps I shall.

[Clocky]

Switches are specifically defined by the mapper as to whether they can be shot to be activated. Most hitscans and projectiles should be able to do this.

The Vulcanette multi-mag setup was developed back when I was still hoping to minimize ammo types and maximize interchangeability of ammo, and also I didn't really know how belts worked.

I pretty much assume that all loading mechanisms are somewhere on the underside of the gun, thus conveniently requiring no changes to the HUD sprite.

That said, I have given exactly zero real thought to what all that stuff on the BFG is. Perhaps I shall.

Aw, was e cpecting some realistic kinsa thougt but I see whar you mean, one thing that really freaking bothers me is that one sprite that a mod uses for the pickup for the brutal doom HUD weapon sprite that has the magazune almost at the barrel while the original plasma rifle magazine is still shown, BD's original pickup sprite looks just like the HUD one. Another thing, where is Vupcanette's battery? I assume it goes to the side of the weapon where those two(4,I dont remember) grey squares are ocated? Aand... The battery (Energy Cell, not sure.) makes the xweapon capable of firing, right? Then would it work like a semi auto weapon or would it simply not work at all? edit: I honestly dont know how many switches that ive cencountered were shootable, just seems rather odd for one to not be activated by wrapons fire by default...

[Chris]

Chaingun has the lowest DPS of all the weapons besides the fist and pistol (and, when you count maximum ammo capacity, the lowest damage potential overall), but can instantly start painlocking anything weaker than a hellknight.

It's also the fastest and most accurate hitscan weapon. The first two shots of the chaingun are always 100% on-target (compared to the pistol's first shot only), and only starts deviating afterward when the button is held down for refire. However, you can release the fire button and press it again at just the right time to avoid the refire spread penalty with little reduction of fire rate. Done right, it can put out more bullets at 100% accuracy faster than the pistol's maximum refire speed, which is great for enemies at a distance.

[Clocky]

Chaingun has the lowest DPS of all the weapons besides the fist and pistol (and, when you count maximum ammo capacity, the lowest damage potential overall), but can instantly start painlocking anything weaker than a hellknight.

It's also the fastest and most accurate hitscan weapon. The first two shots of the chaingun are always 100% on-target (compared to the pistol's first shot only), and only starts deviating afterward when the button is held down for refire. However, you can release the fire button and press it again at just the right time to avoid the refire spread penalty with little reduction of fire rate. Done right, it can put out more bullets at 100% accuracy faster than the pistol's maximum refire speed, which is great for enemies at a distance.

To be honest I kind of forget about the tapping if in the heat of battle or not, I, someimes, remember after njoticing how much spread my Chaingun did, and then I practice tapping a bit but shortly afterwards, say, change of weapon, high rank enemy, I forget a bit, probably because the Chaingun isnt my go-to weapon though, but I still enjoy it.

[Amuscaria]

Switches are specifically defined by the mapper as to whether they can be shot to be activated. Most hitscans and projectiles should be able to do this.

The Vulcanette multi-mag setup was developed back when I was still hoping to minimize ammo types and maximize interchangeability of ammo, and also I didn't really know how belts worked.

I pretty much assume that all loading mechanisms are somewhere on the underside of the gun, thus conveniently requiring no changes to the HUD sprite.

That said, I have given exactly zero real thought to what all that stuff on the BFG is. Perhaps I shall.

The Chaingun is fantastic on CTF maps for defense. Chaingun-tapping the flag-carrying enemy is pretty useful on many of the more open maps.