Guess who's back, back again ♪ Paid mods back, tell a friend

[Chris]

My concerns with this aren't as much about ethics (as others pointed out, this isn't exactly an unprecedented practise) as they are about practicality: will these paid mods even be commercially successful when they're literally competing against free alternatives?

That's a valid question. And something no one can answer until we see the system in action. What are they going to have available? What kind of quality control will they enforce? It has to be enough for Bethesda to think it will sell (since they're putting their money on it selling, not the "modder"), but what kind of things will end up on the system?

Ultimately, the current problem with Creation Club is Bethesda's PR sucks (this is nothing new). They should've known it would've drawn comparisons to paid mods, and should've made it their #1 priority to clearly differentiate it from the start (i.e. in the video presentation). Show how it's different before people start thinking it's the same. Instead, we get a mock-up that doesn't represent the system and looks suspiciously like the old system (the "showcased" mods would not be allowed since they're small preexisting mods, exactly what people are afraid of happening), with all the useful information in an FAQ that most people won't read before making up their minds, if at all. Not having a known currency scale for their "Credits" doesn't help the presented mock-up, with one of the problems of the previous paid mods system was small stuff being over-priced (something Bethesda themselves have run afoul of, e.g. Horse Armor, though they have gotten better about that since then).

[Nash]

The fact that they were cheeky enough to insert a Horse Armor self-depreciating joke into the video presentation was not smart. People are taking it as a "wow fuck you too".

[60dollartechdemo]

My concerns with this aren't as much about ethics (as others pointed out, this isn't exactly an unprecedented practise) as they are about practicality: will these paid mods even be commercially successful when they're literally competing against free alternatives? And given how morally opposed to paid mods the community is, one certainly wouldn't struggle to find top-notch custom content for free in communities as expansive as Skyrim and Fallout 4. All of this scepticism isn't exactly unwarranted either, given Bethesda's history with traditionally frowned upon practises that have earned them a reputation somewhat akin to Activision and EA.

That's why I'm worried about Bethesda/Zenimax shutting down the Nexus (or other big mod sites, if they exist). For people to even bother with the Creation Club, they'll need to make sure that they can *only* get mods through their crummy paid service - and yeah, Zenimax's lawyers are probably the most predatory out of the entire games industry.

[Soul Sucka]

DLC faces these exact same issues, but it doesn't seem to have issues selling.

DLCs are also usually backed by much bigger budgets, developed by larger groups of people and provide a lot more content than a single mod (at least, mods at the level of those presented in the video), so of course they'll sell reasonably well if the price is worth. But they are creating a new platform for mods that will have "official" content grouped alongside greenlit fan content, yet they tell us, "but here's the catch: while platforms like this are nothing new, we'll have the products therein cost you money!", with the only incentive being quality control in a community that is so large that it doesn't desperately need modders to up their game by any means.

I'm all for modders wanting to cash in on the time and effort they put into the awesome things they do, but that's why there are the far more sensible options of putting up a donation bar or a Patreon, which allow fans to support them of their own volition. Making your mods "paid" and effectively locking many out of your creation in a particular scene that is known for providing legally free products since its inception will obviously garner negative receptions no matter what.

How would a cruddy game get this kind of content in the first place? I mean, I guess there are people who genuinely like Sonic 06, but there still needs to be a large enough community around the game for there to be people to a. want to create stuff for it and b. have the right combination of perseverance and skill to actually create something that remotely looks sellable. Add to that that creating content for a modern game from scratch is not remotely as simple as it is for something like Doom, and a plan to salvage a game by relying on your community to fix it for you is pretty damn flawed.

It has been a common practise by greedy, deadline-heavy companies to shelve out incomplete games for full price in time for the holiday season, and then quickly proceed to advertise DLCs, special editions and/or remakes to reassure customers that they NEED those things for the true experience that they were promised way back when those overhyped and misleading trailers aired.

Skyrim's mod scene is not necessarily a testament of how great the standalone Skyrim game is, but rather because of how popular and accessible it is, how much potential it holds as a game, and especially because everyone who has the game says that it's a much greater game with mods. You can't fix games like Sonic '06, but you can pick up decent games with lots of potential such as Skyrim and Minecraft and take them to their absolute heights thanks to custom content, and that's the main reason why they sold so well and became as iconic as they are today.

Ultimately, the current problem with Creation Club is Bethesda's PR sucks (this is nothing new). They should've known it would've drawn comparisons to paid mods, and should've made it their #1 priority to clearly differentiate it from the start (i.e. in the video presentation). Show how it's different before people start thinking it's the same. Instead, we get a mock-up that doesn't represent the system and looks suspiciously like the old system (the "showcased" mods would not be allowed since they're small preexisting mods, exactly what people are afraid of happening), with all the useful information in an FAQ that most people won't read before making up their minds, if at all. Not having a known currency scale for their "Credits" doesn't help the presented mock-up, with one of the problems of the previous paid mods system was small stuff being over-priced (something Bethesda themselves have run afoul of, e.g. Horse Armor, though they have gotten better about that since then).

Exactly! They had a semblance of common sense in stepping away their previous blunder about paid mods, so one would think that if they still had something of the sort in the works, they'd at least put good effort into not making it sound remotely as bad it did, so now that the damage is done, it's fair to believe that if they didn't care to make the PR behind this one good, the Creation Club will most likely face-plant its way to extinction.

That's why I'm worried about Bethesda/Zenimax shutting down the Nexus (or other big mod sites, if they exist). For people to even bother with the Creation Club, they'll need to make sure that they can *only* get mods through their crummy paid service - and yeah, Zenimax's lawyers are probably the most predatory out of the entire games industry.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to be worried over something like that, in light of recent events with T2, and nobody would put it past Bethesda to pull something like this, since their initial paid mod idea was frankly absurd and out-of-touch with the communities they work with. They deserve all the outrage they can and will get if they bring to light such a nasty context to their Creation Club idea.

[Graf Zahl]

I think the whole idea will go the same way as app revenue on mobile:

It doesn't even work for mobile apps. It's only the big players who make some money. Take an independent developer and even if they got a product that manages to get a bit of traction the cost to maintain the traction is significantly more than the revenue. You always got to be up to date with current technology, you always need to have some distinguishing feature that may make customers choose your product and you constantly have to invest time to know what's up. It's totally unmanageable for small scale developers to do this. And thanks to no working alternative you cannot use other means to get into the market. If you want to publish on iOS you have to get through Apple's bureaucratic red tape which again costs time and money, and with Google on Android it's not much better. (And thanks to a market being totally conditioned to these stores, even when technically possible there's no way to sidestep them and do your own thing.)

So aside from the big players with huge budgets and significant synergies there's nobody who can profit from it, especially if there's so much content that the smaller stuff is hard to find.
Such controlled access to a limited market will kill all true competition for sure, it's the antithesis of a free market economy. And I predict the exact same outcome here, it's just something that favors the big shots over the smaller players.

[Chris]

It doesn't even work for mobile apps. It's only the big players who make some money.

I'm not sure this logic applies to Creation Club. Bethesda has been very careful to not say the "modder"/developer sees any revenue from sales. They instead get paid a set amount when their idea is approved, and upon reaching development milestones. Once the content is complete, the "modder"/developer is finished with their involvement, and it's Bethesda Softworks that gets money (or not) from sales. This is more or less how non-indie development works; the publisher pays based on the game idea, the workers are paid from that budget, and the publisher takes the revenue from sales rather than the developers. Even Bethesda Game Studios doesn't see money from sales of their games. The "modder"/developer has less to worry about with making money since they'll be paid in full regardless of how well it ultimately sells, and can decide before starting whether the amount of money they'll get is worth the effort of what they want to make. In that way, it's more self-regulating; if someone's content doesn't sell because the club is over-saturated, it's Bethesda Softworks alone that takes the hit, making them less likely to continue approving so many smaller pieces of content. And since approval is the first step rather than the last, a "modder"/developer that gets declined won't have put effort into making something before not getting paid for it.

[Graf Zahl]

I can imagine how the sums will look, if that's the plan...

[Reactor]

Hmmm. It is strangely quiet about the subject now. Any of you guys tried out some of these sold mods/TCs? I would love to hear feedbacks, many of them. Then we can start collating about whether or not selling mods/TCs for cash is productive on the long run.

[Chris]

Hmmm. It is strangely quiet about the subject now. Any of you guys tried out some of these sold mods/TCs? I would love to hear feedbacks, many of them. Then we can start collating about whether or not selling mods/TCs for cash is productive on the long run.

I don't think it's available yet. I haven't heard anything from news sites, a cursory glance at Bethesda's own site doesn't reveal any announcement or links to buyable mods, and the FAQ just says it'll be ready "Summer 2017" (where there's still over a month left, assuming it's not delayed in which case it can be longer).

[Reactor]

Oh, so we still have to wait a little. All right, it's not that urgent anyway...

[wildweasel]

Besides that, it's only a thing on Fallout 4 and Skyrim Special Edition, neither of which I own or feel like spending money on.

[Reactor]

You know, I was expecting that after Bethesda gave the whole thing the green light, people would start pouring such mods/TCs, and ye, there'd be total garbage amongst them. Maybe because it's limited to a certain variety of games, scammers don't feel like it would grow any fruits for them.

[NGX]

It seems more like a bait to get people involved in modding for their games to me. Is this about Doom 4? I think many would have the prospect of earning some money in their subconscience, even if they don't ever intend on really pursuing it.

[MetroidJunkie]

At least they made it a rule that no freely available mod can be used here so it's not like we'll have to worry about mods that are already available becoming monetized and, since they're monitoring every step of the way, they won't just get copywritten or otherwise BS suggestions.

[Dancso]

I'll just leave this link here
https://bethesda.net/en/article/5lz4Q7F ... oming-soon