GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:17 am

Heh, it was only a matter of time until one of those people surfaced. Isn't it suspicious that this person registered only to make these posts here? I smell a troll...

But to summarize, in the end it was all about making a cost/benefit analysis. The cost of continued maintenance for 320x200 stands in no relation to its benefits. The menus are essentially broken on that screen size and the only way to make them operational again would be to invest a non-trivial amount of work - work that nobody here is willing to do because, honestly, we have more important things to care about.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Matt » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:12 am

That new console/menu font is so much easier on the eyes!
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Nightheath » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:16 am

Hi,

will there be versions for linux again (.deb) ?


Thank you for your great work. Keep it up! I love it.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Kinsie » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:30 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Heh, it was only a matter of time until one of those people surfaced. Isn't it suspicious that this person registered only to make these posts here? I smell a troll...
This sentiment actually popped up in another place I visit last night, although they actually posited an actual use-case for crunching down to such a low resolution (vanilla-esque graphics on retro style mods like Doom Delta). I raised the issue (in far more polite terms than that guy) with Rachael, and it sounds like there are a number of possible solutions that can come up (ie. a way of scaling 3D output without effecting 2D, or something akin to vanilla's low detail mode, or even just a third-party shader mod) but none of them are enormously high-priority right now - there are understandably bigger, more Vulkan-shaped fish to fry.

Nightheath wrote:Hi,

will there be versions for linux again (.deb) ?


Thank you for your great work. Keep it up! I love it.
Linux and Mac versions usually take a little bit longer to come out than the Windows ones. I don't know the exact details, but I believe they're compiled by different people who may have their own stuff going on.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:46 am

Hellol111 wrote:Why? What made you do this? I just want to be able to play doom with a crunchy look and updated behavior, but you removed it for no reason.
...
And you can't add some kind of toggle for the old fonts?
...
I just find it weird that something like that just gets completely gutted when there was no need for it. I get that English isn't the only language, and you want to keep things usable for everyone, but lets not pretend that GZDoom doesn't already have a few thousand options, and a simple opt-in to the old font and scaling can't be that hard considering all the assets already exist.

You have repeated that there was no reason/need. There was (as a few people have now explained, and Graf, in particular, has given some detail).

You also imply that putting 320x200 back would be trivial. It would not. The game is now set up to expect a minimum resolution greater than that. The menus in particular were already straining at the seams and not really as functional as they should have been as a result. It's not just a case of "having a toggle". The interface has been refactored quite extensively in a way that is not compatible with extremely low resolutions. Keeping code around to support 320x200 would be far more effort than it is worth to satisfy the few people who like the novelty of being able to play a modern, visual-enhancing port at a 1993 resolution. The raising of the minimum resolution for GZDoom enhances the user experience for the vast majority of GZDoom users; very few of whom would want to use 320x200 on a regular basis (if ever) and for the people working very hard to maintain and improve the port. Most people win by this change.

You have asked about reasons though, so how about the reverse question - what reason would there be to restore it?
To be honest, I find "I like a crunchy look" to not be a strong argument on a port with advanced visuals. I get that some people do like the "crunchy" look, but that's not what GZDoom has ever really been about. It is, however, what other ports are about, so you still have non-GZDoom choices.

(And although I would not recommend sticking with older versions of GZDoom (because you will lose out on bug fixes and enhancements) the old versions of GZDoom are still available too if you really need to fire up GZDoom and see what it looks like in 320x200. (IMO, ugly as hell is the answer, but I get that some people like playing Doom as if the whole scene was a censored Sim in the shower. ;) ))

And, to counter it just in case it comes up, "it's always been there" is not a strong case either - especially for a modern port aimed at modern computers where 320x200 simply doesn't exist in any practical sense. Things move on. Windows 10 can only run as low as 800 x 600 (which is actually lower than Win 8 offered). Raising the minimum resolution alone will not mean anyone on a target system who was previously able to run the game will now not be able to do so. As for other ports, I'm pretty sure that Risen 3D and Doomsday haven't offered resolutions as low as that for some time (if ever?). The lowest either of them offer (on my system at least) is 640x480.

It has been stated repeatedly over the years that (G)ZDoom's primary purpose is not to fully and authentically replicate the exact playing experience of 1993. There are other ports out there which do this and, because it is one of their main (if not the main) purposes, then they do it very well. GZDoom does try to play old maps correctly, and considerable time and effort is invested in ensuring compatibility. However, it is not trying to do so in a way that fully emulates exactly how the Doom engine behaved in 1993.

By default, GZDoom consciously enhances the visuals (and other aspects) of the playing experience to present Doom in a more modern environment. You have heard that the new font system (spawning, in part, from the localisation effort) and the need to make the extensive menus readable in GZDoom were the driving forces behind the removal of 320x200. That resolution is simply too small to be compatible with these things. However, I would also argue that insisting on 320x200 in a (by default) OpenGL game that supports dynamic lights, PBR materials, models and a whole host of other modern visual enhancements is somewhat of an incompatible logic too.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:01 am

Kinsie wrote:
Graf Zahl wrote:Heh, it was only a matter of time until one of those people surfaced. Isn't it suspicious that this person registered only to make these posts here? I smell a troll...
This sentiment actually popped up in another place I visit last night, although they actually posited an actual use-case for crunching down to such a low resolution (vanilla-esque graphics on retro style mods like Doom Delta). I raised the issue (in far more polite terms than that guy) with Rachael, and it sounds like there are a number of possible solutions that can come up (ie. a way of scaling 3D output without effecting 2D, or something akin to vanilla's low detail mode, or even just a third-party shader mod) but none of them are enormously high-priority right now - there are understandably bigger, more Vulkan-shaped fish to fry.


Decoupling the 2D view's size from the 3D view's size is something that really should be done - but for obvious reasons this is on hold until the Vulkan backend is ready. But let's not forget that the continued maintenance of a low end resolution does not come for free - and at some point the issue of its value will inevitably come up. And of course the big question: How many people out there are actually using this on a regular basis? Maintaining a feature just for the novelty factor of it is essentially wasted.

Actually, it's this total backwards focus on the technicalities from more than 25 years ago that has held back Doom more than anything else. And in the end every time when some presumably beloved retro thing had to be removed, a handful of people complained for a short period of time but then things quickly calmed down again and it turned out that it wasn't really this important to begin with. I don't expect this to turn out any different.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby comet1337 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:16 am

old menu and console fonts are just gone?
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Kinsie » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:31 am

comet1337 wrote:old menu and console fonts are just gone?
The old CONFONT is still there for mods. The menus and console use a whole new lump, NewConsoleFont, in a new format.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:53 am

Kinsie wrote:
comet1337 wrote:old menu and console fonts are just gone?
The old CONFONT is still there for mods. The menus and console use a whole new lump, NewConsoleFont, in a new format.


Indeed, and of course the old fonts can still be used for HUDMessages and so on if you like.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:56 am

And just in case someone wants to use the new fonts, they are called NewConsoleFont and NewSmallFont - they use the same source data but generate differently looking character images.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:10 am

Graf Zahl wrote:And just in case someone wants to use the new fonts, they are called NewConsoleFont and NewSmallFont - they use the same source data but generate differently looking character images.

Oooh, I didn't realise that NewSmallFont was a thing. Updated my attachment in the previous post to use that one too. :)
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby comet1337 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:27 am

so how would i go about to getting the console and menu to use their old fonts?
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Enjay » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:29 am

You don't. They can be printed to the screen in HUDMessages, but the new menus and localisation mean that the old fonts are not suitable for the menus any more.
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby comet1337 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:56 am

can't we have an option to use the old fonts for people who prefer them and don't use translations
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Re: GZDoom 4.0.0 Released

Postby Graf Zahl » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:39 am

No. It doesn't work that way, because the new fonts were an essential part of fixing the layout of the menu.
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