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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Enjay » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:41 pm

To be fair, usually it's someone feeling left out because when they try to load up a complicated new mod that uses modern features to the extreme they find that it runs extremely slowly on their machine. Not only are they not trying to run the original Doom engine, they are also trying to run a mod that would never have come close to running on the original engine either. But somehow its still "crazy that I need a supercomputer to run Doom".

Hell, my phone can run D-Touch-GZDoom with my model-heavy Gene-Tech mod loaded and still do it at an acceptable rate.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Rachael » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:51 pm

That is true. But then it comes right down to a basic size vs heavy lifting issue - more complex systems can handle more complex mods - simple as that.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:30 am

What does "runs Doom" even mean?
GZDoom was able to "run Doom" at acceptable speeds when it first came out in 2005. The thing to consider was that "run Doom" means "run the IWAD levels".
My old 2004 machine, which I still have, started to get into performance issues with stuff like P:AR, and don't even think about some wide open maps like MAP09 of Hellcore - that was a total slideshow.

This is another thing some people seem to forget: Doom, as has been made 23 years ago, consisted of very simple levels with a small data set. Stuff that gets made today often tends to explode the requirements just by adding more detail to the maps, not by adding more requirements for effects processing. This is actually a lot more costly than models or some mild use of dynamic lights.

I am currently playing Chris Lutz's Hellscape mod and stuff like this, despite not using many advanced features, would easily overtax older machines just by the insane amount of map detail.
(And let's not even start with Frozen Time, ok...? ;))

In the end the one unifying constant of those who complain seems to be that they got stuck with some shitty laptop without proper hardware acceleration. Of course a hardware accelerated renderer will not work well on such a system.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Major Cooke » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:01 pm

I can attest to that.

Spoiler: Images


A map like this is laggy, and all the sectors are simple -- although they utilize vertices for sloping. There's only 3 things in there too, one of them being a laser tree (which makes virtually no impact on my machine, with or without it since it just stands there and does nothing).
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Gez » Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:35 pm

That map would be laggy even without the slopes; it's just the sheer number of sectors.

A more efficient way to create a heightmap would be nice; but I have no idea how to shoehorn that in the Doom engine.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Tapwave » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:58 am

Just a little tidbit, the feature section about music formats does not mention that Zdoom also supports GME formats, but that may be a bit too much data?
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Bauul » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:16 pm

Just popping in to say I really like the new site!

One small suggestion: on the Downloads page, the descriptions of the three ZDoom source-ports are absolutely crucial to understanding them. Instead of (or in addition to) just writing out the differences in the text, it might be clearer to include a brief description underneath the name of each source port.

They can be very short, something like "Primary port", "Experimental version" and "Discontinued original" respectively.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby chronoteeth » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:15 pm

Enjay wrote:
chronoteeth wrote:(i get its 2017 but with older games u tend to have more folks on older rigs/set ups coming)

Although I'm not saying this comment is trying to put across this particular point of view, it reminded me of something I've been trying to say for a long time: GZDoom (etc) is not an old game. It's using an old data set and it has classic gameplay but as far as running on a modern OS and doing the various rendering things it does, it's not an old game. Sure, it's not absolutely bleeding edge next gen tech requiring the newest and fastest machine either but it's not merely a 24 year old game that can run on a good 386.

Why the mini rantette? It's just that I've seen so many people complaining (and again, not saying that chronoteeth is one of them) about the specs needed "just to play Doom". Well, if you're playing GZDoom, you're not "just playing Doom".

Rant over. :P


name association. doom (the actual, yknow, game) can run on virtually anything. GZDOOM, the source port, cant. RIGs from like 2005-2008 can run this port just fine, and whilst yes it is 2017, for a lot of people (especially those with poor income), doom modding is a great way to really get into game dev as a whole.

when I had my pentium 3 back in the day (literally didnt get a new rig till 2009 and that was just up to a P4) i couldnt do much at all, but thankfully zdoom was a huge viable option that allowed loads of mods and levels to explore and play without having to both have the money to do so AND offer a huge variety to boot. it was my massive gaming option for quite some time before I got what i got now

whilst yes growing with the times is the eventual defact-o choice that has to be made to grow the port, doom is still doom, and especially with a lot of people getting more into doom thanks to doom 4's release, theres a lot of new comers. I got a friend who played doom 4 on the xbox one, but his crappy rig could only run day of defeat on medium. thankfully doom is a game thats old but also versatile, and he was able to play it finally as well as loads of old fun mods (btw if someone goes off on "if he got an xbox one but couldnt save up more for a big pc" then you dont know being poor lol)

long story short i just feel like the image the new site is presenting is less of a "show off the amazing abilities that this engine can do to an old game!!" and more "i am both elite as well as smug. only the top of the top can use me." If we were to apply game design for doom levels here, it'd literally be akin to over detailed levels, terrible gameplay.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby zrrion the insect » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:25 pm

We can't advertise how up to date the engine is if we advertise it like it was aimed at toasters. That doesn't even make sense to do. Doom is still doom sure, but zdoom is more than doom and that won't be properly presented if we don't actually advertise what the port can do.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby chronoteeth » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:27 pm

thats why i like the old site layout, it advertized its new features right off the bat without making it seem like it was only good for people with mega powerful rigs. It showed the new features, gave a blurb, and had a side bar with things to click that showed off more for those who were interested. it felt open to all without "feeling" dated
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby zrrion the insect » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:36 pm

That's an interesting assessment of a page that felt super dated.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Gez » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:55 pm

chronoteeth wrote:long story short i just feel like the image the new site is presenting is less of a "show off the amazing abilities that this engine can do to an old game!!" and more "i am both elite as well as smug. only the top of the top can use me."

My computer is a 2009 laptop; it runs GZDoom just fine.

Doom 4, I wouldn't even try running it.


Also no, Doom the original game doesn't run on virtually anything. It runs on 80386 DOS. For other operating systems and other processor architectures, you need to go through a PC DOS emulator such as DOSBox or use a source port. For example, to run Doom the game on a modern 64-bit Windows PC, you need a source port such as GZDoom.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Xaser » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:58 pm

chronoteeth wrote:long story short i just feel like the image the new site is presenting is less of a "show off the amazing abilities that this engine can do to an old game!!" and more "i am both elite as well as smug. only the top of the top can use me." If we were to apply game design for doom levels here, it'd literally be akin to over detailed levels, terrible gameplay.

Could you give some specifics? I explicitly tried to avoid any sort of language like "ZDoom is the best port ever!!11oneone", and aside from the "runs modern hardware" blurb and the overall look and feel of the site, I can't imagine what could be invoking that mood.
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby RSSwizard » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Thankfully GZdoom at least runs without openGL being enabled. The moment they force it to work openGL 3 the show is over.

Speaking of which I noticed that the software mode for GZdoom doesnt support 24 bit color even though (I dont give a crap about dynamic lights or models). Im using another palette for my game and as a result under Zdoom I had to port ALL of the vanilla and modded graphics and textures from other wads to have them saved as PNGs in the wad. That way it remaps the colors.

It would be a special bit of shine for 24 bit graphics to work in GZdoom even without Hardware support. Because then I wont have to have, or distribute, those bulky vanilla laden graphics wads (including BTSX and BTSXe2 which I also converted - all the textures and everything).
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Re: New ZDoom site

Postby Xaser » Wed May 03, 2017 4:06 pm

Since I hadn't posted about this yet (oops):

We just rolled out a minor front page update yesterday. The most obvious change is that Mars is now replaced with something a bit less maybe-not-Doom. Thanks to Torm for the image!

As usual, leave comments here, and post bugs there.
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