Replacing lines for "Other" gender

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Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Kostov » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:52 pm

Yeah. This world can suck.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Amuscaria » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:32 pm

Gez wrote:80
dafuq?

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Gez » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:22 am

Eriance wrote:How many gender pronouns are in use now (mostly on Tumblr)? Like 26?
At least 80

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Kostov » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:18 am

26... sheesh.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Amuscaria » Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:12 am

How many gender pronouns are in use now (mostly on Tumblr)? Like 26?

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Kostov » Sat Jul 04, 2015 12:08 pm

The self-selves dilemma could still use a look, though.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by deathride58 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:12 pm

I did a quick check myself, and the original idea of changing the default it/its pronouns for the "other" gender to they/them pronouns is entirely possible for anyone who can modify and compile the source code.
In P_Interaction.cpp, line 129 should be able to be changed from { "it", "it", "its" } to { "they", "them", "their" } without any negative consequences. It would be a lot better if it wasn't hardcoded, though.
Allowing modders to define custom pronouns for the "other" gender in the language lump would also be great, though I'm not exactly sure how that could be done. I know it's possible, though.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Kostov » Tue Jun 30, 2015 2:03 am

Alright, that's out of the way then.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Matt » Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:53 pm

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by NeuralStunner » Sat Jun 27, 2015 4:07 pm

This is why I always write obits without the pronoun aliases. It's ultimately simpler, especially if I get translations later.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Gez » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:50 am

Poorly:

Code: Select all

OB_KILLEDSELF = "%o se tua (lui/elle)meme.";

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Kostov » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:38 am

Because coding ZDoom is all about exploration. Innit.

Gez, how does French handle obituaries currently?

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Blox » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:52 pm

If something isn't broken why are we trying to fix it by breaking it?

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by GFD » Fri Jun 26, 2015 6:50 pm

Yeah, dealing with other languages in this way definitely sounds like overkill. If that were also to be addressed, the only solution I would see as reasonable would be a system that lets you use multiple strings for obituaries, depending on the genders of the two players involved.

Re: Replacing lines for "Other" gender

by Gez » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:24 pm

I think they're hardcoded.

Even if they're not, though, it remains complicated, because largely it depends on the language. For example in French, possessive pronouns agree with the gender of the possessed, not the possessor. I.e., in English the feminine form for the third person possessive pronoun is "her", and the masculine form is "his". In French, the feminine form is "sa" and the masculine "son"; but you cannot translate "her" by "sa" or "his" by "son"!

To quote wikipedia:
In some languages, possessive determiners are subject to agreement with the noun they modify, and possessive pronouns may be subject to agreement with their antecedent, in terms of relevant categories of gender, number and case. For example, French has mon, ma, mes, respectively the masculine singular, feminine singular and plural forms corresponding to the English my, as well as the various possessive pronoun forms le mien, la mienne, les mien(ne)s corresponding to English mine.

Since personal pronouns may also agree in number and gender with their own antecedent or referent, the possessive forms may consequently show agreement with either the "possessor" or the "possessed", or both. In French (and most other Romance languages) the third-person singular possessives do not indicate the gender of the possessor, although they agree with the possessed (son, sa and ses can all mean either "his", "her" or "its"). This contrasts with English and standard Dutch, where the form of the possessives (his, her, its; zijn, haar) indicates the grammatical or natural gender of the possessor, but does not depend on properties of the possessed. However German and several Dutch dialects[2] additionally inflect their possessives, thus giving agreement with both possessor and possessed; German has sein and ihr meaning "his" and "her" respectively, but these inflect to give (for example) feminine forms like seine and ihre, depending on the gender (and number and case) of the thing possessed.
So in a ZDoom context, for something like "%o killed %hself with %p own rocket launcher", in French you'd have "%o s'est tué avec son propre lance-roquette" -- notice how two %-placeholders have been removed, the first by the presence of a reflexive form for the verb, and the second because the possessive pronoun does not depend upon the possessor's gender and here you know the gender of the rocket launcher. (Remember: gender is a grammatical notion, not a biological one. Male and female aren't genders, they're sexes. Genders are masculine, feminine, neutral, and whatever other oddity there can be in a language, including sometimes genders that cannot be tied to sex at all, such as "animate" and "inanimate".)

On the other hand, if you want to convey the same emphasis as in a sentence like "%o killed %p own dumb self" then it becomes harder, you'd have to add "elle-même" or "toute seule" (feminine) and "lui-même" or "tout seul" (masculine) and that's already harder. French also has agreements on adjectives, and that's by far the biggest issue with gendered strings in ZDoom. The feminine form is usually the same as the masculine form with the addition of an 'e' at the end, but sometimes this causes the doubling of the previous consonant, but it's not always the case. To get it right, you have to use morphological rules (overkill) or lists (simpler to implement, but also overkill).

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