[Increased] Hitscan Limited Range

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Expand view Topic review: [Increased] Hitscan Limited Range

by Enjay » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:26 pm

David Ferstat wrote:If someone has designed a map with enemies deliberately out of range of the player, then I can see that game-play would change if the hitscan range were to suddenly expand this dramatically. Similarly, if the mapper has designed an area wherein the player might have some safety from distant monsters, then, again, things won't work as intended.
I suspect there won't be many, if any maps like this, but it is a valid point. I have had the opposite problem on a few of my maps. i.e. I have placed a hitscan enemy to provide me with a bit of a sniper problem to deal with. Then whilst zoomed in with my own sniper scope, I can watch him impotently shooting at me whilst I return equally impotent fire. :?

If there is only one change to be made - then lets have the extended range weapons across the board – no question about that IMO. However, if Randy wants to differentiate I think a either compat option or a mapinfo option would do the job nicely. (Although the point about author rather than player choice is well made, and precludes the compat route.) Presumably the mapinfo option would default to traditional enemy range if not actually specified - to prevent breaking any old maps which may use the limited range as a feature. Does anyone actually know of any maps like that?

by David Ferstat » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:40 am

While I second Enjay in loudly cheering the removal of this antique limitation, I don't think that it should be "across-the-board".

I agree that it's unlikely to have much effect upon the original id levels, I can see it changing some third-party maps. If someone has designed a map with enemies deliberately out of range of the player, then I can see that game-play would change if the hitscan range were to suddenly expand this dramatically. Similarly, if the mapper has designed an area wherein the player might have some safety from distant monsters, then, again, things won't work as intended.

I believe that the extended hitscan range should be an option defined in the MAPINFO lump, or similar. In other words, it should be a option set by the designer, NOT the player.

As far as monsters having the same hitscan range as player, well, I don't think that things should be easier than necessary for the player. :)

by Graf Zahl » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:04 pm

HotWax wrote:The railgun issue is pointless as it doesn't use the same range limit as the bullet weapons. Drop it.

As for the monsters not being able to hit you from a far range, clearly someone here has never played Doom 2 MAP15 and angered the chaingunners on top of the "castle" from far away. It is quite annoying to get pelted from hundreds of feet and not know where the bullets are coming from.
That's exactly what I meant. It can be a total Pain in the ass.
Still I think this is a justified change even if it does affect the monsters. I don't really think it'll hurt too many maps--particularly since the limitations of vanilla Doom would have prevented excessively huge maps anyway--but maybe a compatibility option is in order?
I fully agree but the thing is that the distance is passed as a parameter to the hitscan functions. Doom uses the same constant (MISSILERANGE) for both monsters and players. So if Randy just changed this constant (that's how I read this post) it will affect both players and monsters. This parameter should be only increased when these functions are called from a player attack function and that can be easily done without affecting the monster attack functions.

by HotWax » Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:23 pm

The railgun issue is pointless as it doesn't use the same range limit as the bullet weapons. Drop it.

As for the monsters not being able to hit you from a far range, clearly someone here has never played Doom 2 MAP15 and angered the chaingunners on top of the "castle" from far away. It is quite annoying to get pelted from hundreds of feet and not know where the bullets are coming from.

Still I think this is a justified change even if it does affect the monsters. I don't really think it'll hurt too many maps--particularly since the limitations of vanilla Doom would have prevented excessively huge maps anyway--but maybe a compatibility option is in order?

by Graf Zahl » Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:54 am

Hirogen2 wrote:None of the Doom monsters actually fit with a railgun IMO, preferably with the one exception of the Shotgunner.

Ever thought of creating a *NEW* monster??? :wink:

by Hirogen2 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 9:36 am

Xaser wrote:
Hirogen2 wrote:Of course, if you give a monster a railgun, well, then you're screwed, but then again, only ScriptedMarines and ZCajun Bots shall get railguns.
Hey, Don't forget about the MonsterRail code pointer!
That's what I meant? En plus, giving an imp an railgun is somewhat, well, weird appearance. None of the Doom monsters actually fit with a railgun IMO, preferably with the one exception of the Shotgunner. If a monster gets the railgun, the damage level should be lowered, otherwise you are dead when you see the first Shotgun Guy.

by Xaser » Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:29 am

Hirogen2 wrote:What monsters do have hitscan ("instant hit") weapons? We list:
Zombies, Shotgun Guys, Chaingunners
You forgot about the Spider Masterminds. Those guys could probably deal some pretty good damage even from far away.
Hirogen2 wrote:Of course, if you give a monster a railgun, well, then you're screwed, but then again, only ScriptedMarines and ZCajun Bots shall get railguns.
Hey, Don't forget about the MonsterRail code pointer!

EDIT: Oops, Graf beat me to mentioning the spider. Nice timing by me. :P

by Graf Zahl » Sat Sep 27, 2003 7:27 am

Hirogen2 wrote:What monsters do have hitscan ("instant hit") weapons? We list:
Zombies, Shotgun Guys, Chaingunners -- in basic, everyone who uses bullet weapons, everyone else uses projectile weapons.
In other words: some of the most frequently used monsters at all. And you forgot the Spider Mastermind. :wink:
And bullet weapons do already spread so much that a Shotgunner from 512 WU does not really hurt you, probably 1% or so. And at a range of 2048, you can be "glad" that if ONE of SEVEN pellets (single shotgun) hits you.
The probability is admittedly low but it is not zero. And when there's a lot of hitscan monsters in a map the probability of being hit rises with it. The thing is there is no maximum attack range for monsters so they can possibly attack from an unlimited distance. The old distance limit prevented the player from getting hit by a monster too far away and I really don't like changing crucial things like this that can possibly break delicately balanced maps.
but then again, only ScriptedMarines and ZCajun Bots shall get railguns.
Why that? One of Quake2's better monsters had a railgun as a weapon.

by Enjay » Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:07 am

And I don't think the monster rail was limited in the same way as other hitscan weapons anyway.

This "fix" is great news. Something I've wanted for years. Thanks Randy.

by Hirogen2 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:32 am

Graf Zahl wrote:Only for the player or for monsters, too? For the player I think this is a good idea. For the monsters I don't.
What monsters do have hitscan ("instant hit") weapons? We list:
Zombies, Shotgun Guys, Chaingunners -- in basic, everyone who uses bullet weapons, everyone else uses projectile weapons.
And bullet weapons do already spread so much that a Shotgunner from 512 WU does not really hurt you, probably 1% or so. And at a range of 2048, you can be "glad" that if ONE of SEVEN pellets (single shotgun) hits you.
Of course, if you give a monster a railgun, well, then you're screwed, but then again, only ScriptedMarines and ZCajun Bots shall get railguns.

by Graf Zahl » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:44 pm

randy wrote:I have chosen to increase it to 20480 units for 2.0.48/2.1.0.

Only for the player or for monsters, too? For the player I think this is a good idea. For the monsters I don't.

by Xaser » Fri Sep 26, 2003 3:34 pm

randy wrote:I have chosen to increase it to 20480 units for 2.0.48/2.1.0.
Yipee! Sniper of Insanity will live on!

by randi » Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:44 pm

I have chosen to increase it to 20480 units for 2.0.48/2.1.0.

by HotWax » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:20 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:Why limit it to 16k? The absolute maximum a Doom level can have is 64k. Although you will run into major problems before that due to internal overflows in calculations. The maximum safe size for a Doom level is probably 32k units so why not go all the way?
Note the words "at least" in my previous post. :)

by Graf Zahl » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:15 pm

Why limit it to 16k? The absolute maximum a Doom level can have is 64k. Although you will run into major problems before that due to internal overflows in calculations. The maximum safe size for a Doom level is probably 32k units so why not go all the way?

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