To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

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Expand view Topic review: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Gez » Fri Sep 27, 2019 3:44 am

chippo wrote:I'd dig an option that said "Regarding jump,crouch,freelook, do EXACTLY what the map author designed for", 'On'/'Off'.
We'll need to wait for someone to develop a mind-reading library, and use it in conjunction with a time-travel library, so that GZDoom can look in the map author's mind at the moment they were making the map to retrieve that information.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Rachael » Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:02 pm

chippo wrote:Is it technically impossible for a program (gzdoom) to tell whether the map author wanted the player to jump, or just not implemented yet?

That would certainly seem to be the case for "Allow freelook". When set to 'On' or 'Off', it does the obvious, but 'Default' is the same as 'On' for all games, including the originals.

I'd dig an option that said "Regarding jump,crouch,freelook, do EXACTLY what the map author designed for", 'On'/'Off'.
Sorry but that is not possible.

There is no way to explicitly enable jumping from the mod side, as has already been stated, and "Default" just defaults to always on unless explicitly disabled. ("Yes" is the override, as you may have guessed)

GZDoom has to make an assumption in this case, and the assumption here is that jumping is allowed.

The best thing you can do is load up the map in DOSBox/Doom.exe 1.9, or Chocolate Doom, and see if the map even loads. If it does, it might be reasonable to assume you're not supposed to jump in it. But even that is not surefire, as some maps meant for source ports may still load regardless (though that would probably be pretty rare).

At any rate - what you want really is not possible. GZDoom has no sure way of determining whether a map author intended for jumping to be enabled or not.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by leodoom85 » Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:07 pm

As a mapper, there are ways to prevent players to skip areas that aren't meant to be crossed, even with any kind of jumps.
And, about changing the name of "Allow Jump" to whatever phrase seems that wouldn't work much to be honest because that option name is very clear and simplistic enough (and for ambiguity reasons).
One last thing, people should read the readme or the text that the author explicitly says that jump/crouch/freelook/cheats is allowed or not and same goes with mods that overwrites the jump/crouch disability. But...I guess, that depends exclusively of the player to do whatever it wants.

EDIT: Nice bump for this thread lol

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by wildweasel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:43 pm

Matt wrote:Seems like "Presume Allowed" and "Presume Disallowed" instead of "Default" might be nice for that kind of situation...
Though at the moment, the only flag the authors have access to is one that forbids jumping, not one that forcibly enables it, to my knowledge. Meaning that'd need to be added, and this late in the game, you would still be having to deal with the last 25 years worth of custom maps that were created before the flag was added.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Matt » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:49 pm

Seems like "Presume Allowed" and "Presume Disallowed" instead of "Default" might be nice for that kind of situation...

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by wildweasel » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:04 pm

Such an option does already exist, and it's called Default. The thing is, though, the option has not always existed for an author to designate allowance for jumping, so ZDoom assumes it is allowed in any case where this is not explicitly allowed or disabled.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by chippo » Thu Sep 26, 2019 12:24 pm

Misfit5150 wrote:Is there a way to tell whether you should be able to jump or not?
Some of the earlier answers said, "well, no, not really. you should try some things and especially read the documentation". Some of the later answers seemed to say that if you have a recent source port, you can tell by setting some option and then testing whether you can jump or not.

I'm using gzdoom 4.2.1 and the only option I can find is "Allow jump", with settings 'On', 'Off' and 'Default'. With it set to 'Default', it mostly works that testing whether you can jump tells you whether the map author intended jumping. However, not always. Sometimes jumping works, and then halfway through the level, you realize that jumping was not intended.

Is it technically impossible for a program (gzdoom) to tell whether the map author wanted the player to jump, or just not implemented yet?

That would certainly seem to be the case for "Allow freelook". When set to 'On' or 'Off', it does the obvious, but 'Default' is the same as 'On' for all games, including the originals.

I'd dig an option that said "Regarding jump,crouch,freelook, do EXACTLY what the map author designed for", 'On'/'Off'.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Ethril » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:52 pm

Gez wrote:Or climbing on the enemies themselves and crowdsurfing to safety. It works fine with demon mobs. Sure, you'll probably get chewed a bit while doing so, but no more than if you had let yourself be surrounded.

Also, to use shortcuts. I don't jump to break maps, but if I want to backtrace and I can go back to an area I already explored legitimately with a jump or a crouch instead of having to go all the way around ten corridors, twenty doors and five elevators, I will.
Aye, this. I (usually) don't try to sequence break with jumping/crouching, unless I'm playing AEoD or something and my options are A. Jump over the short ledge and skip half the map or B. Fight the Demilich, Tchernobog and Lo Wang at the same time in a room smaller than Dead Simple.

anyway, yeah. it bugs me when a map clearly has zdoom features in it but doesn't tell you whether or not you're allowed to jump. i'm like, "is this shortcut intentional or am i breaking the map?" "am i allowed to jump on that pillar and grab the megasphere or am i supposed to find a secret teleporter or use that archvile to launch me up there or what?" "its not cheating to crouch into this alcove to grab the drops from those zombies right?"
i mean if a map has zdoom stuff in it then the mapper is most likely aware of the existence of jumping/crouching, but it's bad to assume that jumping is legal just because they didn't disable it.
basically my point is that i like to know if obvious jump/crouch shortcuts are there on purpose or if i'm supposed to go around.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Blue Shadow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:53 am

So, by the looks of things, I'm the only weirdo who doesn't use jumping in a casual manner. :P

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Gez » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:33 am

Even better: lure a demon under a ledge, jump atop the demon and from there on the ledge. Shortcut! :D

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by CaptainToenail » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:32 am

Dislike crouching, it just feels wrong for some reason, whereas jumping doesn't bother me at all (as long as it is a jumping-allowed map of course!).

It is kind of crappy though when you can duck under projectiles or jump on top of monsters and run along their heads, dirty cheaters! :woh:

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by ReX » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:12 am

I, too, have become accustomed to having the freedom to jump in a game. And, unless the author specifically states that jumping should not be used (or it's for vanilla DooM), I will jump. On occasion I will discover that there are areas not intended to be jumped upon or into. In that case I simply go back to a savegame or NOCLIP out and resume the game. Unless the map is so shittily designed that I constantly get stuck or break the gameplay, I rarely rage against the author for not stating that jumping is not allowed.

My map-making preference in ZDooM is to always allow jumping, and design the map carefully so that the player can only jump to "allowed" areas, and not get stuck inadvertently because of jumping. If the map is intended to be "realistic", I will make sure that constructs such as fences, bridges, windows, etc. are built accordingly. For example, if a player should not be allowed to jump off a bridge, a set of railings can be created that is too high (e.g., 64 units) to jump over, and is spaced to prevent crawling under (e.g., 24 units). If a player is not meant to jump through a window, it will have "glass" or bars, or will be too narrow to pass through. [Making a linedef on the window impassable would detract from the "realistic" aspect of the game, in this case.]

My map-making preference in vanilla DooM is to design the map so that a player that is using jump will not be able to circumvent the intended progression or accidentally get stuck because of jumping. Somethimes this means using impassable linedefs, and at other times creating other barriers.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by XutaWoo » Wed Oct 31, 2012 2:47 pm

On the 'why would you jump' question, well, I'm just always jumping. It feels faster, makes my dodges seem cooler, and it's just fun to bunny hop around.

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by CorSair » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:38 am

I try always follow the wishes of mapper(s), but I still leave jump and crouch on, either for fast backtracking to supplies or if I get myself screwed totally, then I use jump or crouch to get out the harm's way.

And I usually got bit of trouble when you need to jump or use crouch in that map, but you forget that. :P

Re: To Jump Or Not To Jump In ZDoom SP WADS

by Matt » Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:38 am

Seconding everything WW said. As for slowing down, I do of course actually have +speed bound, but guess which key my muscle memory goes to first...


EDIT: Maybe a bit off topic since we're discussing SP, but after a few rounds on a Zandronum DM server it occurs to me that just the thought that I can't jump to climb simple obstacles causes me to screw up. A lot. More.

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