Default Keybindings Presets

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Expand view Topic review: Default Keybindings Presets

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by drfrag » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:35 am

Well since nothing else has been decided i've gone ahead and done the PR: https://github.com/coelckers/gzdoom/pull/1112

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Rachael » Sat May 23, 2020 10:10 pm

Graf Zahl wrote:
Rachael wrote: I'd really prefer to have just 2, maybe 3 default layouts. Lefty and Righty layouts can be merged. This is for new users, not for people who might have their IJKL keys bound to cheats or special CVar changes.
No, they can't. I use the WASD keys for other functions and I don't think I'm the only one. If we make the presets too generic it is just as bad as having too many.
Okay, I tried to hold off on responding to this one but I can't - this really has to be said.

Default settings aren't for people like you. Nor are they for people like me. Or for anyone who already uses GZDoom on a regular basis. They're for brand-new users, and changing them will affect literally neither of us. Me, personally? I already have my entire numberpad bound to CVar changing commands. I'm not asking for these defaults to be changed for me - I'm asking them to be changed so that a new user is less overwhelmed in navigating what is pretty much universally agreed to as a shitty and convoluted menu organization in order to change the preferences to their liking - the less they have to change, the better. And while yeah, the menu could stand to be improved as well, that's a separate issue and beyond the scope and intent of this thread.

The goal with making a more generic preset isn't to make things more convenient for you and me. It's to make it less inconvenient for a brand-new user. No matter what you set the preset to, literally every new user will have to change something. That's life. It's okay. The goal is to ease the burden here, not provide an optimal one-size-fits-all default.
Graf Zahl wrote:Two should be ok, one based on WASD and the other on 8426, but both should bind the cursor keys as well.
No matter what is decided, the cursor keys do seem to be reasonable to keep bound. After all, even when laptop keyboard designers decide to axe the keypad and arbitrarily decide where the non-arrow control keys go (ins/del/pgup/pgdn/home/end) - they almost always at least have the cursor keys at least.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by sinisterseed » Sat May 23, 2020 11:36 am

Yeah, I agree that the vanilla preset should stay there, even if for historical reasons only.

"C" for crouch is odd to me though. I'd recently ran into a Doom 3 mod that apparently uses that - and has seemingly all the key bindings locked (!) -, and C is way too close for a WASD setup IMO. Admittedly not as bad as for ESDF though, but still. My own personal setup is kinda interesting honestly - I use Left Alt for running, and Mouse2 for "Use" in a more vanilla setup, and if something requires a more modern config I just bind Left Control to Crouch, E for Use, Mouse2 for secondary fire, Space for Jump, and so on.

As about "configuring them to your needs" nah, we can't have that, it pisses off the purists and intellectually lazy who unironically defend those who can't be arsed to learn how Doom was played like in the past. And when I called them lazy some individuals resorted to calling me an "elitist", no kidding! Imagine being called an elitist for doing your research about the game you're playing, port you're using, and WAD you're playing smh. I've seen pettiness before, a lot actually, but this is entirely new even for me.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by dpJudas » Sat May 23, 2020 6:17 am

I would say the classic preset should be there. If nothing else, then to let someone easily get back to that if they tried the other preset.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by drfrag » Sat May 23, 2020 5:56 am

Then spacebar for jump and c for crouch ala far cry? what about the classic preset? should i drop it?

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Graf Zahl » Sat May 23, 2020 5:03 am

Rachael wrote:I do 100% agree with what you've said here, Graf, but I think the majority of people in this discussion are asking for defaults to be set to what people most commonly set them to, rather than what they personally want.

That being said - that comes with a different issue entirely - who decides what is the most common default? ;)

Unless we have a way of asking for people's INI's and running them through a statistical tool that spits out the defaults that most people use, everything is purely arbitrary.
The irony here is that the main subject of discussion is the 4(!) directional keys.
Configuring a setup normally means setting up a lot more than 4 bindings but it doesn't seem to matter how much work needs to be done - if these 4 aren't properly preconfigured it becomes a major issue for some.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by dpJudas » Sat May 23, 2020 5:00 am

drfrag wrote:The most common default is clearly wasd, but now which wasd?
Don't really care much which, as long as it is one used by the major modern AAA shooter games. Your proposal does not do that as afaik none of them use 'e' for jumping. You pay your respects with F or E. ;)

There seems to be this general misconception that a feature like this is about making the ideal default binds, or options in general. That is not really what it should be about. There is no ideal setup. The default binds and options serve the purpose of maximizing the chance a user will not abandon the product on sight (*).

*) I actually originally dropped GZDoom on sight because the defaults were so far from what I expected that I concluded it was a poor port. From there I tried ZDoom which defaults happened to be closer to what I wanted. It wasn't until much much later I realized I could actually customize GZDoom to match what I was going for. So that's at least one example of what happens if the defaults are totally out of whack. With keyboard binds it is probably not as bad, but a gamer today would never assume you move with arrow keys, slide with alt and shoot with control. No game released today does this.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by drfrag » Sat May 23, 2020 4:48 am

The most common default is clearly wasd, but now which wasd?
So it's going to be only two presets in the end? wasd and keypad without weapons? or three?
This is my proposal for wasd:

Code: Select all

w +forward
s +back
a +moveleft
d +moveright
e +jump
x crouch
mouse2 +altattack
And this is common now:

Code: Select all

` toggleconsole
1 "slot 1"
2 "slot 2"
3 "slot 3"
4 "slot 4"
5 "slot 5"
6 "slot 6"
7 "slot 7"
8 "slot 8"
9 "slot 9"
0 "slot 0"
[ invprev
] invnext
mwheelleft invprev
mwheelright invnext
enter invuse
- sizedown
= sizeup
shift +speed
space +use
mouse1 +attack
capslock "toggle cl_run"
f1 menu_help
f2 menu_save
f3 menu_load
f4 menu_options
f5 menu_display
f6 quicksave
f7 menu_endgame
f8 togglemessages
f9 quickload
f11 bumpgamma
f10 menu_quit
tab togglemap
pause pause
sysrq screenshot
t messagemode
\ +showscores
f12 spynext
mwheeldown weapnext
mwheelup weapprev

// Originally just for Heretic, Hexen, and Strife.
// I can't see why they shouldn't be for Doom or Chex either.
pgup +moveup
ins +movedown
home land
pgdn +lookup
del +lookdown
end centerview

// Xbox 360 / PS2 controllers
pad_a +use
pad_y +jump
rtrigger +attack
ltrigger +altattack
lshoulder weapprev
rshoulder weapnext
dpadleft invprev
dpadright invnext
dpaddown invuse
dpadup togglemap
pad_start pause
pad_back menu_main
lthumb crouch


/* Default automap bindings */
mapbind f am_togglefollow
mapbind g am_togglegrid
mapbind p am_toggletexture
mapbind m am_setmark
mapbind c am_clearmarks
mapbind 0 am_gobig
mapbind rightarrow +am_panright
mapbind leftarrow +am_panleft
mapbind uparrow +am_panup
mapbind downarrow +am_pandown
mapbind - +am_zoomout
mapbind = +am_zoomin
mapbind kp- +am_zoomout
mapbind kp+ +am_zoomin
mapbind mwheelup "am_zoom 1.2"
mapbind mwheeldown "am_zoom -1.2"

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Rachael » Sat May 23, 2020 4:34 am

I do 100% agree with what you've said here, Graf, but I think the majority of people in this discussion are asking for defaults to be set to what people most commonly set them to, rather than what they personally want.

That being said - that comes with a different issue entirely - who decides what is the most common default? ;)

Unless we have a way of asking for people's INI's and running them through a statistical tool that spits out the defaults that most people use, everything is purely arbitrary.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Graf Zahl » Sat May 23, 2020 1:04 am

What I don't get is people who whine around when some software ships with defaults they do not agree with - that's what the option menu is there for, goddamnit! It's impossible to preconfigure any software to satisfy all users. All that can be done is to provide some reasonable defaults but it's nearly inevitable that the end user has to perform some fine tuning. But apparently for some users even this is out of the question. :?

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by SanyaWaffles » Fri May 22, 2020 8:27 pm

I'm of the opinion if people don't like what GZDoom has to offer then maybe this port isn't for them, and that includes different keybinds that are more modern and not classic.

I'm tired of having to appeal to a vocal minority of people who won't even use the thing they complain about and somehow get the oil anyway, so I agree with what was said above.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by sinisterseed » Fri May 22, 2020 7:32 am

Enjay wrote:
lowskill. wrote:Well that escalated quickly.
Fair point.

I don't think you worded things poorly and your point was a fair enough one to make. It's just that I personally have reached breaking point with all the "but we can't do that because the purists won't like it" things that have happened in the past. Half of them don't even like GZDoom anyway.
Can't argue with that, seconding this :) .

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Enjay » Fri May 22, 2020 7:25 am

lowskill. wrote:Well that escalated quickly.
Fair point.

I don't think you worded things poorly and your point was a fair enough one to make. It's just that I personally have reached breaking point with all the "but we can't do that because the purists won't like it" things that have happened in the past. Half of them don't even like GZDoom anyway.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by sinisterseed » Fri May 22, 2020 6:49 am

Enjay wrote:
lowskill. wrote:purist
Honestly, I'm sick and tired of the loud-voiced self-styled "purists" shaping, moulding and bending what is done in the community to their will. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be due consideration for the preservation of Doom traditions and styles, but so many of these "purists" arguments are just unnecessary obstacles to progression where both the old and the new can usually happily co-exist anyway.

In this case, if someone is getting upset that a key that they don't have to use (and which can be turned off mod-side for any mod made after that was a possibility) has a default binding, then I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned, they are being irrational and selfish (as they so often are). If they are getting that pissy about it, why are they even playing GZDoom in the first place? Oh, that's right, the rules of "purism" alter from person to person anyway.

Of course, the above rant is all a bit straw man because no purist has actually raised the objection in this case (yet). I've just reached a point where my patience has run out with "but the purists won't like it" arguments - especially when its a case that the purists can easily not use the feature and all that they are doing is being offended on behalf of a potential new player who "won't get the true Doom experience".

The purists may be loud, but their opinion is no more important or valid than the (probable) majority of other users who are not lying on the floor screaming and drumming their heels in a tantrum.
Well that escalated quickly.

It wasn't my intention to ignite the flames though, I was just trying to make a point but I must've worded it quite poorly. What I was trying to raise was the simple fact that there's no such thing as a perfect default configuration, no matter what it is, some will just not be pleased about it - some of those yes, being purists, admittedly -, and each one for different reasons. It just seems that the topic of "ZDoom defaults" somehow manages to pop-up periodically, as it recently did once more on DW...

Can't say I have much sympathy for that attitude either, especially when it's used in defense of not doing proper research about the port in question, its features, and not being bothered to do a literally 2 minute research about "jumping/freelook in classic Doom", for instance.

The best configuration is your personal setup, ultimately. I'm content with the current defaults, the addition of ESDF is probably the only one that could make some sense to implement.

Re: Default Keybindings Presets

by Enjay » Fri May 22, 2020 6:28 am

lowskill. wrote:purist
Honestly, I'm sick and tired of the loud-voiced self-styled "purists" shaping, moulding and bending what is done in the community to their will. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be due consideration for the preservation of Doom traditions and styles, but so many of these "purists" arguments are just unnecessary obstacles to progression where both the old and the new can usually happily co-exist anyway.

In this case, if someone is getting upset that a key that they don't have to use (and which can be turned off mod-side for any mod made after that was a possibility) has a default binding, then I really don't care. As far as I'm concerned, they are being irrational and selfish (as they so often are). If they are getting that pissy about it, why are they even playing GZDoom in the first place? Oh, that's right, the rules of "purism" alter from person to person anyway.

Of course, the above rant is all a bit straw man because no purist has actually raised the objection in this case (yet). I've just reached a point where my patience has run out with "but the purists won't like it" arguments - especially when its a case that the purists can easily not use the feature and all that they are doing is being offended on behalf of a potential new player who "won't get the true Doom experience".

The purists may be loud, but their opinion is no more important or valid than the (probable) majority of other users who are not lying on the floor screaming and drumming their heels in a tantrum.

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