Making a whole game as a single map

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Expand view Topic review: Making a whole game as a single map

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Fri Feb 15, 2019 5:18 pm

This sounds like a very decent compromise. Best of both worlds and everyone is happy.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Rachael » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:00 pm

I really like Xaser's solution. It gives the mapper a way to say "hey, don't use saves" and it gives the user a way to say "I *really* need to save, like... right now!"

As long as there's at least an override, I think it's livable. Like hiding all the lines on the automap, or as Xaser already mentioned, disabling crouching/jumping/freelook.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Xaser » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:56 am

Regarding the infamous save-prevention topic, a few of us were talking on Discord and I think we've come up with a reasonable-compromise new feature. Somehow. :P

The gist: add a 'nomanualsaves' option to MAPINFO that works exactly like nocrouch/nojump: by default it prevents manual saves, but the user can set an 'sv_allowsaves' cvar that overrides it permanently.

The way I see it, save prevention is exactly the same camp as nocrouch/nojump anyway -- it's basically a hint to the player that says "you aren't supposed to do that," but if they wanna cheat, they absolutely can (e.g. there's nothing stopping the user from enabling godmode in a hypothetical Resident Evil GZDoom TC, nor should there be). And those who hate this behavior can set the CVAR and never have to worry about it again. Win/win.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Blue Shadow » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:51 am

You're using GZDoom Builder, right? When setting the action special and arguments, choose action 80 (ACS_Execute). There should be a check box for named scripts. Tick it, and choose the name of the script from the drop-down list (you might need to compile the ACS code before it can be seen in the list).

That's as far as I recall on how to do it. I don't have GZDoom Builder installed, and it's been like two years or so since the last time I used it, so things could be different.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:27 am

Blue Shadow wrote:
Hidden Hands wrote:edit: ok I just checked out the WAD, I think I get it. How would I make each room specific using this method? The ToggleMusic script obviously needs extra scripts of the same nature? I'm not entirely sure how to pull it off if I want several variants for several different rooms.
I've reworked the demo so that can be easily achieved.
Also, I'm having trouble getting this to work. In your example it works great, but when implementing it into my map it does nothing and it doesn't identify the script. It says in red "unknown script" when I highlight the actor.
What map format are you using (Doom, Hexen or UDMF)?
Thank you. I'm using Gzdoom UDMF (DOOM2). Really thank you for taking the time to help me with this.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Blue Shadow » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:04 am

Hidden Hands wrote:edit: ok I just checked out the WAD, I think I get it. How would I make each room specific using this method? The ToggleMusic script obviously needs extra scripts of the same nature? I'm not entirely sure how to pull it off if I want several variants for several different rooms.
I've reworked the demo so that can be easily achieved.
Also, I'm having trouble getting this to work. In your example it works great, but when implementing it into my map it does nothing and it doesn't identify the script. It says in red "unknown script" when I highlight the actor.
What map format are you using (Doom, Hexen or UDMF)?

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Rachael » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:44 am

Hidden Hands wrote:It never hindered the game.
Oh, yes it did.
Hidden Hands wrote: A game designer should have full freedom to make their game however they wish, and if the player doesn't like it, then they can skip that game and not purchase and/or play it.
So if I decide to make a game that wipes your Documents folder because you died, that should be my right?

No. This is not an argument that you can convince me of - if you want to control-freak the player's experience like that, use an engine other than GZDoom to do it.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Graf Zahl » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:43 am

Last time I checked, Doom was an action game. GZDoom is still, first and foremost, an engine aimed at playing action games. If you repurpose it for anything else you either have to accept the limitations imposed by that or make your own fork.

The main problem with exposing such a feature to modders without any end user control is that the abuse factor will be 10 times higher than its actual value.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:30 am

Rachael wrote:
Hidden Hands wrote:While I understand that to some degree, if all games did that there would be no survival horror games. Management and survival make these sorts of games key elements in a panic/horror/desperation environment. Being able to save anywhere means you are always "safe".
Then survival horror is broken by design.

I've played plenty of save-anywhere survival horror games and I didn't think any less of them for the save-anywhere elements. In short: Deal with it. There are plenty of ways to cook the player's goose without depending on such a lazy mechanic.
Some of the most popular survival horror games in history used this very mechanic, some taking it a step further, requiring additional items to save at save points. It never hindered the game. A game designer should have full freedom to make their game however they wish, and if the player doesn't like it, then they can skip that game and not purchase and/or play it. Horses for courses. Not all games should follow the same template. There are enough people that love that style, some survival horror fans asking for a callback to those days of limited saves and limited items.

Not everybody shares the same taste in games. For example, most people now are obssessed with online gaming and non-stop action. I on the other hand cannot stand either. I prefer slow paced, offline one player games. And I'm not alone. It's the same for this. If I decide to make my game limited saves at certain points, thats my right as a creator. I'm not forcing anyone to play my game, its for people that want that style, and there are enough that do. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm just saying that everyone has their own niche.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Rachael » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:19 am

Hidden Hands wrote:While I understand that to some degree, if all games did that there would be no survival horror games. Management and survival make these sorts of games key elements in a panic/horror/desperation environment. Being able to save anywhere means you are always "safe".
Then survival horror is broken by design.

I've played plenty of save-anywhere survival horror games and I didn't think any less of them for the save-anywhere elements. In short: Deal with it. There are plenty of ways to cook the player's goose without depending on such a lazy mechanic.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:55 am

Graf Zahl wrote:
Hidden Hands wrote: That sounds like a really bad decision. Why would it be created in a way that takes away a creators freedom?

Because allowing creator's freedom would take away user's freedom, which is considered far more important.
While I understand that to some degree, if all games did that there would be no survival horror games. Management and survival make these sorts of games key elements in a panic/horror/desperation environment. Being able to save anywhere means you are always "safe".

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Graf Zahl » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:35 am

Hidden Hands wrote: That sounds like a really bad decision. Why would it be created in a way that takes away a creators freedom?

Because allowing creator's freedom would take away user's freedom, which is considered far more important.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:23 am

kevansevans wrote:
Hidden Hands wrote:That sounds like a really bad decision. Why would it be created in a way that takes away a creators freedom?
You're absolutely free to fork GZDoom and remove this functionality as long as you A) State that these changes are present, and B) keep your build open source. No one will fault you for this.
Oh.. right. Okay, thats cool then. Yeah, I plan to release a manual with the game so it will make everything clear about the way my game functions.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by kevansevans » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:16 am

Hidden Hands wrote:That sounds like a really bad decision. Why would it be created in a way that takes away a creators freedom?
You're absolutely free to fork GZDoom and remove this functionality as long as you A) State that these changes are present, and B) keep your build open source. No one will fault you for this.

Re: Making a whole game as a single map

by Hidden Hands » Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:09 am

Graf Zahl wrote:
Hidden Hands wrote: Also, I forgot to add it in my first post here, any idea how to disable game saving and make it so you can only save at certain points instead? For example, a save room has a casette recorder in it. Accessing the cassette recorder allows you to save.
You can't. One of the deliberate design decisions of ZDoom always have been to not let the mapper dictate the user side of functionality.
That sounds like a really bad decision. Why would it be created in a way that takes away a creators freedom?

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