Can't break the secret glass window in Griffin Chapel

[siealex]

Hexen, hub 3 (Seminary), map Griffin Chapel. June 6 build, also many previous builds (possibly even mid-2014 builds), both ZDOOM and GZDOOM.
On this map there is a large hall with a platform in the center and a small glass window on the wall. This window must be broken to open a secret area. All walkthroughs state that it can be broken with any weapon, but I can break it only with a melee weapon (mace or fists) while flying or noclipping, I can NOT break it with any projectile weapon including Mage's "1" staff.
WTF?

[VoidMage]

It can be broken with any weapon (well, any ranged one, obviously (unless you're flying)), it's just damn hard to hit the right spot.

[NeuralStunner]

It can be broken with any weapon (well, any ranged one, obviously (unless you're flying)), it's just damn hard to hit the right spot.

It can't, at least in ZDoom, because the line you're supposed to hit is a midtexture, not a lower texture like MAP01's stained glass. (I haven't tested the map in vanilla.)

I don't know if there's a compat flag to make "projectile hits" lines work properly with projectiles, but if there is, this map could use it.

A more extensive fix involves a modified map and scripts.

[siealex]

the line you're supposed to hit is a midtexture, not a lower texture like MAP01's stained glass.

And what about the windows in Bright Crucible near d'Sparil's Heart? hey couldn't be broken in very old ZDOOM versions, now they act fine.

[VoidMage]

@NeuralStunner: ...:sigh:..
I have yesterday tested that window with mage 2 and 3 and fighter 3 (somehow couldn't find the right spot with mage 1 (the spot was slightly different for each of the weapons)) and all of those three worked. Now, for completeness I've checked cleric 2 and 3 and those work too.

On the other hand, perhaps the lines shouldn't be this hard to hit...

[NeuralStunner]

And what about the windows in Bright Crucible near d'Sparil's Heart? hey couldn't be broken in very old ZDOOM versions, now they act fine.

Looks like the projectile's center has to cross the line for it to trigger. If you throw hammers at the insides of the pillars, the glass won't break. (You can test this as much as you like in a single play, Raven accidentally left one of the lines flagged Repeatable.)

The sector past the window in Map30 doesn't allow enough room for most missiles to completely enter it. Sure enough, by making the sector deeper, I can get the window to break easily.

On the other hand, perhaps the lines shouldn't be this hard to hit...

Of course they shouldn't! The setup is clearly meant to be hittable, head-on, with any weapon that can reach.

[siealex]

The only way to break it in ZDOOM is to get Wings of Wrath in the Seminary, return to GC and hit it with a melee weapon while flying.

[VoidMage]

The only way to break it in ZDOOM is to get Wings of Wrath in the Seminary, return to GC and hit it with a melee weapon while flying.

Again, you're not trying hard enough - at least up to fbefe13 (that's a gzdoom commit, but that doesn't mater in this case (and I've tested with the sw renderer)) it does work.

[Graf Zahl]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder. But that window definitely is too small to be hit consistently. I'd classify it as a map bug as things stand.

[VoidMage]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder.

Out of curiosity, what parts of GZDoom work significantly diferently than ZDoom with 'vid_renderer = 0' ?

But that window definitely is too small to be hit consistently. I'd classify it as a map bug as things stand.

On a vanilla map that worked in vanilla ?
Aren't those the reference ?

[Arctangent]

On a vanilla map that worked in vanilla ?
Aren't those the reference ?

Using this logic, overlapping shotgunners with barrels so they can't move or do much of everything is not an error and is completely normal.

[Graf Zahl]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder.

Out of curiosity, what parts of GZDoom work significantly diferently than ZDoom with 'vid_renderer = 0' ?

None. The playsim code is 99.9% identical, the only notable difference some calls into the dynamic lights code and some handling for reflective floors.

[Gez]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder.

Out of curiosity, what parts of GZDoom work significantly diferently than ZDoom with 'vid_renderer = 0' ?

"ZDoom's stricter collision detection" is stricter than vanilla Hexen, not stricter than GZDoom.

[VoidMage]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder.

Out of curiosity, what parts of GZDoom work significantly diferently than ZDoom with 'vid_renderer = 0' ?

"ZDoom's stricter collision detection" is stricter than vanilla Hexen, not stricter than GZDoom.

OK, that was the part I was asking about (though the other answer was useful too, in a different context).

On a vanilla map that worked in vanilla ?
Aren't those the reference ?

Using this logic, overlapping shotgunners with barrels so they can't move or do much of everything is not an error and is completely normal.

No, your logic is broken.
You're comparing a case where something got accidentally broken in vanilla by its devs to a case where something that was working-as-intended (as opposed to working-by-engine-glitch like wallrunning or whatever) in vanilla but doesn't anymore in a source port.

[hfc2x]

This may just be a case where ZDoom's stricter collision detection is making things harder. But that window definitely is too small to be hit consistently. I'd classify it as a map bug as things stand.

I think the map issue is to be considered, but the culprit is definitely ZDoom's collision detection. Just tested this map in Vanilla with all ranged weapons, and unless DosBox is cheating on me, the results were the following:

Cleric:
-Serpent Staff works 95% of the time (due to weird projectile trajectory)
-Firestorm works 100%
-Wraithverge doesn't even try

Mage:
-Sapphire Wand works 100%
-Frost Shards works 100%
-Arc Of Death doesn't even try
-Bloodscourge doesn't work because its projectiles are too fat

Fighter:
-Hammer Of Retribution works 100%
-Quietus doesn't seem to work

Meanwhile on ZDoom 2.7.1 and the latest development build, I couldn't get any of these weapons to break the window. Only melee weapons + Wings Of Wrath could.