[r1571(1572) bug]Inherited monsters can't projectile-infight

[printz]

I don't know where to find in the source code right now, but seems that monsters inherited from others are treated as the same species, concerning projectile infighting. Maybe this was intended, but has side effects: for example MummyLeaders inherit DECORATE definition from Mummy, for convenience sake, and due to this, they never infight in ZDoom, whereas in original Heretic they always do. Try this little test box (use Black Plague for quick effect): http://www.speedyshare.com/430603285.html . In Heretic SotTR they'll fight, in said SVN ZDoom built they won't. Perhaps it's the same with fire gargoyles/gargoyles and so on.

[Gez]

The title you've made for this is solid [Not a bug].

For re-establishing infight in the Heretic families, well at most that should be a compat option, honestly.

[printz]

Not a compat option, but a flag inside Decorate that states: "infight with ancestor". Until it's fixed, it's a bug, error or side effect. Sigh, now I have to verify every single potential unintended allied group, even though I don't have this much time.

[Gez]

Not a compat option, but a flag inside Decorate that states: "infight with ancestor"

No because I actually think it is better as it is now. I don't want golems to fight with nitrogolems any more than I want doom imps to fight with other imps. If an imp is not hurt by another imp's fireball, why should a golem be hurt by another golem's fireballs? It's more logical and more consistent, so it should stay that way unless compat-optioned off.

[HotWax]

Wait, I thought we kept features in because that's the way it was done originally. Now we're selectively dropping features because we "like the new way better"?

If the monsters were designed to infight in Heretic originally (which they must have been because Raven had every ability to prevent it had they wanted to) then that should be restored. The obvious fix is just to change their Decorate and make them not inherit from each other...

[printz]

Not a compat option, but a flag inside Decorate that states: "infight with ancestor"

No because I actually think it is better as it is now. I don't want golems to fight with nitrogolems any more than I want doom imps to fight with other imps. If an imp is not hurt by another imp's fireball, why should a golem be hurt by another golem's fireballs? It's more logical and more consistent, so it should stay that way unless compat-optioned off.

I wasn't totally against compatibility options; the Decorate part I suggested would state where the compatibility option applies, for sake of flexibility.

[Gez]

Wait, I thought we kept features in because that's the way it was done originally. Now we're selectively dropping features because we "like the new way better"?

It's not a feature, it's a minor behavioral trait. Here's an example of an actual feature, which has been kept from Doom despite not being in Heretic. Or a better example of a feature from Strife which has been purposefully removed from ZDoom.

Raven had also every ability to correct the bug that prevents Maulotaurs to spawn flames if they're standing in lava (footclip bug) or myriad other things. They simply overlooked that part. Remember they worked from the Doom 1.2 codebase, which did not have the Hell Knight yet so the concept of family had not been introduced in the code they worked with. They were too busy adding new features (like a more 3Dish treatment of levels where you can pass above or below enemies and obstacles, the inventory system, etc.) to bother rewriting small and not-easily noticed changes between Doom and Doom 2. It's not like it's a hugely important issue anyway -- we're in 2009, Heretic support has been in ZDoom for what, nine years without anybody remarking on it earlier?

In my opinion, if you put a pack of golems with a golem leader, what should happen is not a mutiny where the melee-only golems kill their leader. They have the same sprites, the same sounds, the same speed and animation rate; until they attack there is no way to distinguish between a leader and a normal. So it is counter-intuitive to have the same event (getting a fireball to hit an enemy) provoke different outcomes based on elements that are not apparent in the game.

My bottom line is this: as things are now, it is better, more logical, more consistent, more intuitive, and more likely to be taken into account when mapping -- whether it stays as is or not -- than the alternative.

It is especially important for ZDoom project where plenty of additional monsters can be added. Remember the reasons why infighting was removed entirely from KDiZD? They are good and valid reasons, even if I didn't like it. Having families of monsters allows to have a nice diversity while still keeping an easily controllable number of "antagonizable" groups, so that infighting can be kept on rather than removed entirely.

Perfect emulation, if you want that, Fraggle is working on Chocolate Heretic. For ZDoom, this is better, so if it is "fixed" it should be with a compat option to keep the better behavior in if so we want.

[printz]

Perfect emulation, if you want that, Fraggle is working on Chocolate Heretic.

If that's true, that's good news.

Fine, whatever you say, but I thought it was unintuitive (not obvious) that property inheritance also includes allegiance. Keep it now as it is, but someone please add an inheritance flag that says: "strictly copy properties but don't team up this monster with its ancestor".

I like versatility you see.

[Graf Zahl]

I have been aware of this issue for 7 years (long before I started contributing to ZDoom) and I intentionally did not change it. I won't start now.

[printz]

Ok, at least I know the cause; I'll make my own wad which 'fixes' the 'bug'.

[XutaWoo]

So, any chance of getting a +ALWAYSINFIGHT flag for the picky people?

[Amuscaria]

So, any chance of getting a +ALWAYSINFIGHT flag for the picky people?

I thought there was one already. o_o

[HotWax]

Yeah, I get it's "non-intuitive" for enemies of the same type to infight. At the same time, if the original levels of Heretic were designed with this in mind, then to not fix it is a fundamental change to the gameplay of those levels. That's akin to, oh I don't know, taking the saving feature out of Doom. Or making it so the first bullet fired from the chaingun isn't 100% accurate.

But I guess we can sacrifice pre-existing features to allow for more editor options or when it's clear the game designers didn't have the resources to make it the "right" way.




OH WAIT!

That's the way the game behaved since 1993 so DON'T CHANGE IT!!!!!

[randi]

In my opinion, if you put a pack of golems with a golem leader, what should happen is not a mutiny where the melee-only golems kill their leader. They have the same sprites, the same sounds, the same speed and animation rate; until they attack there is no way to distinguish between a leader and a normal. So it is counter-intuitive to have the same event (getting a fireball to hit an enemy) provoke different outcomes based on elements that are not apparent in the game.

This is my reasoning exactly. When I did the leaders' classes, I specifically chose to use inheritance because it would make them the same species.

So, any chance of getting a +ALWAYSINFIGHT flag for the picky people?

Maybe.

[printz]

In my opinion, if you put a pack of golems with a golem leader, what should happen is not a mutiny where the melee-only golems kill their leader. They have the same sprites, the same sounds, the same speed and animation rate; until they attack there is no way to distinguish between a leader and a normal.

Yes, but regular golems are jealous of nitrogolems' abilities, so they start mutiny at first ocasion