Surround Sound and MIDI Controllers Issue/Buglet

[RFNagel]

A little buglet that I found with ZDOOM:

I recently built myself a new PC with a Sound Blaster Live Value. The sound card supports 4-channel surround-sound (not 5.1/7.1/etc...). In ZDOOM surround-sound works properly when it is set for 'Quad', and either 'Default' or 'DirectSound' for the sound device, but does not work properly for 'Waveout'.

Now, when I have the sound device set for 'Default' or 'DirectSound', the MIDI playback engine seems to ignore all reverb/chorus/NRPN MIDI controllers that are embedded within the MIDI/MUS files (MIDI controllers 91/93/99-98-6-38). When it is set for 'Waveout', the controllers seem to function properly (but as above, I have no 4-channel surround-sound).

When the sound device is set for 'Waveout' and 'Quad', I hear no sound generated from things directly behind me. When a sound is coming in front of me, the sound is piped to all four speakers. Also, 'Waveout' makes a lot of pops and clicks in the sound effects, but I'd just as soon use 'Default' or 'DirectSound' for 4-channel surround-sound support.

Anyhoo, any chance of getting the MIDI controllers 91/93/99-98-6-38 functioning when 'Default' or 'DirectSound' is selected for the sound device? Note that there may actuually be other controllers that might not be working as well, I haven't had time to experiment with it all that much (although at first 'glance', other MIDI controllers do indeed seem to be working).

[randi]

I assume you are using your sound card's hardware MIDI device? How the MIDI interacts with the 4-channel output is entirely up to your sound card. As you have a budget card, it may simply not have the power needed to drive four channels and do MIDI effects processing at the same time. (Or maybe it does but Creative explicitly disabled it in their drivers to give you an incentive to upgrade; they do that sort of thing.) You can either switch to a different MIDI device, settle for two channel output, or settle for reverb/chorus-less MIDI.

Also, Waveout is ancient, dating back to the Windows 3 days. It should not be used on any systems except those running NT 4.

[RFNagel]

I assume you are using your sound card's hardware MIDI device?

Correct.

How the MIDI interacts with the 4-channel output is entirely up to your sound card. As you have a budget card, it may simply not have the power needed to drive four channels and do MIDI effects processing at the same time. (Or maybe it does but Creative explicitly disabled it in their drivers to give you an incentive to upgrade; they do that sort of thing.)

Yes, the card indeed has the power to and capability do produce 4-channel surround-sound and MIDI effects simultaniously (it works in other DirectSound games with surround-sound support that have MIDI music). Also, even if I select 'Mono' or 'Stereo' within ZDOOM, the MIDI controllers _still_ do not function when "Default" or "DirectSound" is selected.


(edit) Just did some more testing:

The MIDI controllers in question are completely ignored when "Default" or "DirectSound" is selected for the sound device, reguardless of speaker selection (including mono or stereo)/sample rate/bits/etc... The only time that I hear them is when "WaveOut" is selected. (note that the other digital sound devices don't work, as I don't have that type of hardware). In other words, when "Default" or "DirectSound" is selected, the MIDI playback is 'dry as a bone' (no reverb and such).

('nuther edit) After some more testing, it appears that MIDI controller 93 (the chorus effect) is indeed working. Not sure about NRPN chorus though (series of MIDI controllers: 99=127 / 98 = 25 / 6 = 65 / 38 = 127) as chorus is a weird thing to begin with... sort of difficult to hear the difference of standard chorus (MIDI controller 93) and the NRPN chorus effects.

Nevertheless, still no MIDI controller 91 or NRPN reverb (series of MIDI controllers: 99=127 / 98 = 26/ 6 = 65 / 38 = 127).

BTW, IIRC, they worked fine on another PC running W98SE (I'm running XP Pro on this PC, with the latest/final SBLIve drivers) with an AWE32 sound card.

P.S. This prolly isn't all that helpful, but the MIDI controllers in question work fine with plain-jane vanilla DOS DOOM (using DOSBox in WXP Pro).

[randi]

(it works in other DirectSound games with surround-sound support that have MIDI music)

Well, that makes things more interesting (but only slightly so, really). Any games in particular? And how about a song? I could at least tell you if my Audigy does the same thing.

I still think it's your drivers, though. The MIDI device and the digital sound device are accessed through completely different APIs that should have no interaction. If they're interacting, it's not ZDoom's direct fault, and Creative isn't exactly known for the "quality" of their drivers.

[RFNagel]

Well, that makes things more interesting (but only slightly so, really). Any games in particular?

One that comes to mind is Transport Tycoon for Windows, it uses DirectSound as well as MIDI files for it's music.

And how about a song? I could at least tell you if my Audigy does the same thing.

That's a bit harder, as most of the TTDlx tunes are fairly "dry" to begin with.

Dunno if this will help, but here is a WAD that you can try: My Eternal DOOM pieces, with the standard reverb (MIDI ontroller 91) and NRPN reverb (MIDI controller series 99=127 / 98 = 26/ 6 = 65 / 38 = 127) jacked way up -> http://home.earthlink.net/~richnagel/edmusic.zip

[RFNagel]

Sorry for digging up this old thread, but after quite a few months I've been piddling with this again. So far, I've found no other program or game that exhibits this behavior. After a bit more testing with ZDOOM, I found this out:

I ran ZDOOM, and then started the Sound Blaster Live! EAX Control Panel. What I noticed is that ZDOOM (I'm assuming FModex) is lowering the reverb level all of the way down. In this image -> http://home.earthlink.net/~richnagel/EA ... _Panel.jpg , Pic #1 shows how I normally have the SBLive! EAX parameters set. Pic #2 shows what happens when ZDOOM is running... and the reverb slider ("Master Reverb Amount") is 'stuck' all of the way to the left; I can't move it at all, as it jumps back to the left when I try to slide it to the right.

Pic #3 shows how I normally have the EAX Chorus effect set... and ZDOOM doesn't seem to affect this one (I hear the Chorus effect in the MIDI music while ZDOOM is running, and can move the slider with no problems).

After exiting ZDOOM, the EAX parameters are back to normal/restored (as shown in Pic #1), and MIDI reverb is restored (e.g. when I play a MIDI file in Windows Media Player).

Anyhow, I'm still tending to believe that this is not a hardware/driver issue (as nothing else exhibits this behavior), and was wondering if anyone might have any other ideas on the subject?

[randi]

So, your sound card can't do independent MIDI and sound effect reverb? That's what it looks like to me.

[RFNagel]

So, your sound card can't do independent MIDI and sound effect reverb? That's what it looks like to me.

Maybe that's the case, I'm not sure. Like I posted previously, using the Windows port of Tranport Tycoon Deluxe I can hear reverb for the digital sound and MIDI music. Now, I dunno about independent, but if I crank up the reverb in the EAX control panel, I can hear reverb in both when playing the game. Same when playing vanilla DOS DOOM under DOSBox.

Same thing with playing digital and MIDI files within Windows. Using Media Player or XMPlay (another media player), I can play a diital file in one player (MP3/WAV/etc...) and a MIDI in the other player and hear reverb from both of them.

But, independant or not, why would the reverb slider in the EAX control panel be stuck all of the way to the left when ZDOOM is running?

BTW, prolly doesn't really help, but I noticed that when I was playing arround with ZDOOM's "REVERBEDIT" feature, some of the sliders in that editor applet *also* changed the reverb slider in the EAX control panel; I could jack up the reverb to a carzy amount, and hear reverb in the MIDI music as well... although I have no idea how to "set" the parameters in the ZDOOM Reverb Editor. Upon exiting the reverb editor, the settings go back to the originals (I didn't see any sort of "Load" button either).

I'd like to possibly try a few other Windows games that use MIDI format for the music, but can't really think of any now.


(edit) P.S. Is there any way to completely disable the EAX/reverb features of ZDOOM? I have a small hunch that if they were disabled, this would allow me to simply use the SBLive's EAX control panel to 'globally' set the reverb to my liking (similar to how I have it set up and use it currently).

[RFNagel]

OK, I've even more experimenting, and I think you're 100% correct. The SBLive's MIDI reverb is dependent upon that "Master Reverb Slider". Any EAX-enabled games that slide it all of the way down (such as, if you're in a tiny carpeted room where there would be no reverb), will also effect the MIDI reverb.

I tried this:

I started Unreal Gold which supports EAX-1 (and uses digital Tracker format tunes for it's music, and supports 4-channel quad/surround sound), and can hear a lot of EAX reverb and other EAX effects - depending on your location; a stone canvern, a small wooden room, etc...

I then started my MIDI player and loaded a tune of mine that has standard reverb and NRPN reverb maxced out. Finally, I set Unreal Gold in windowed mode, and then started the SBLive's EAX control panel.

As I ran around the map I could:

1) Hear the digital sound's reverb change.

2) Hear the reverb in my MIDI file change.

3) ...and watch the little slider in the EAX control panel move itself up and down <LOL!>.

When I was in a small room, no reverb for Unreal Gold's digital sound, or my MIDI file. When way up on a mountain top, LOTS of reverb for the digital sound as well as my MID file.

So's... in a nutshell, you were correct (appologies for my hard-headedness <G>).

Anyway, I'm thinking even moreso that if there is a way to disable the EAX effects in ZDOOM (but still maintain the quad. surround sound), then I could simply preset them in the SBLive's EAX control panel.

I think that also explains why the "Waveout" device I mentioned previously allows the reverb to work... it must also disable or bypass the EAX stuff. Although, with the Waveout device, I don't have 4-channel surround sound (I'm assuming that there may be a way to disable the EAX stuff, and yet still use DirectSound so's the 4-channel surround sound still works?).

[randi]

Which controls effected your reverb level? ZDoom doesn't actually use EAX; it's all done in software.

[RFNagel]

Which controls effected your reverb level?

I just gave it a test:

ZDOOM's "Room" effect slider is directly sliding/modifiying the SBLive EAX control panel's "Master Reverb Amount" slider (in realtime).

ZDoom doesn't actually use EAX; it's all done in software.

That's why I found the problem that I'm experiencing quite strange... I didn't think (at first) that ZDOOM was doing anything to the SBLive's EAX effects, but apparently it is.

[RFNagel]

So, I'm guessing that ZDOOM should *not* be changing that reverb EAX parameter (as it's all supposed to be accomplished via software now)?