Foreverhood disqualified from the IGF

[skadoomer]

As you may or may not recall, my dainty little mod known as Foreverhood was entered some months ago into the Independent Gaming festival. Earlier this evening i recieved this e-mail:

Foreverhood, one of the games in the "emergency round," is based on the
http://zdoom.org engine. This engine is ultimately derived from ID
Software and other sources; a historical outline is given at
http://www.doomworld.com/10years/ports/ports02_1.php . I downloaded
the current zdoom 2.0.98 release from zdoom.org, and it contains a license
that specifically prohibits commercial use. This would be in clear
violation of IGF entry rules, which require the author hold all
necessary commercial rights. From Doomlic.txt:

3. Prohibited Uses: Under no circumstances shall you, the
end-user, be permitted, allowed or authorized to commercially exploit
the Software. Neither you nor anyone at your direction shall do any
of the following acts with regard to the Software, or any portion
thereof:

Rent;

Sell;

Lease;

Offer on a pay-per-play basis;

Distribute for money or any other consideration; or

In any other manner and through any medium whatsoever
commercially exploit or use for any commercial purpose.

Notwithstanding the foregoing prohibitions, you may commercially
exploit the software you develop by exercising the Educational Use
right, referenced in paragraph 2. hereinabove.

Because of the turbulent history of zdoom, it is possible that the
author may be able to demonstrate an alternate source code base with an
alternate license, such as GPL. A GPL doesn't prohibit commercial use;
it's just not usually profitable for games. I would note, however,
that if indeed the Foreverhood author produces a zdoom under GPL, the
contest entry would be in violation of the GPL. No source code is provided,
nor any offer for how to obtain the source code. I am not aware of zdoom
having any other licenses; I think the Foreverhood author has a burden
of proof here.

With the advancement into the polymost renderer, i know for a fact that the conflicting code (ken silvermans build code) will never be replaced with something thats GPL acceptable, hence, my disqualification.

Now i am truely pissed about this situation. I know foreverhood is an ant on a mountain when it comes to the world of independent gaming mods. But to know that in the end i lost because of a technicality that gets me so fired up. I had always hoped that in some way, shape or form, because of zdooms achievements in the world of doom source ports, that it could rise higher than the world of doom into an broader port where you didn't have to be limited to establishing your content and processes by a doom meathod. We have already seen the beginings of this in decorate and in randy's plans for zdooms future.

However, the technicalities of all this hard work leave us mod users in a crossfire of lisense agreements. What we are and aren't allowed to do are governed by so many factors its ridiculous. Even the charman of the igf needed clarification of why no formal lisense exsisted for zdoom.

Any plans to perhaps make this a bit clearer in terms of which lisense to obey and what our limits and liabilities are in using zdoom in a mannor beyond doom? It would really help in clearing up some of what my paranoia is telling me i have the freedom to do in marketing foreverhood to a broader audience.

[wildweasel]

The world has too many technicalities and loopholes to be taken seriously these days.

[DoomRater]

Hook me up with a donate button. I want to contribute.

[NiGHTMARE]

You should tell them that Foreverhood is not "based on" ZDoom, it simply requires it. If they still stick to their guns, point out that by their logic, they should also disqualify anything which requires Windows to run .

You could also point out that Foreverhood's "source code" and the game date are one and the same, and all anyone needs to access it is a utility such as XWE or WinTex.

[Dracula]

Drat, that's a bit of a pain especially after all this time. Still, this doesn't mean you're going to give up on it right?

[Risen]

Like NiGHTMARE said, change your distribution package to not include ZDoom at all. Sure, you're required to get it... but isn't that also the case with DirectX? If they NEED you to submit an executable, I bet BioHazard will write you one. The executable could check for the presence of ZDoom and either launch the game or a browser at zdoom.org.

How is it coming along, anyway? I may actually have some time available to look over it again for you.

[Dracula]

The executable could check for the presence of ZDoom and either launch the game or a browser at zdoom.org.

That's a nifty idea but would they allow that? I don't see why not but people these days...

[jallamann]

Code: Select all

@echo off
if exist "zdoom.exe" goto launch
echo You need ZDoom to play this game.
echo Download from www.zdoom.org
goto end
:launch
zdoom.exe -file foreverhood.wad
:end

Piece of 3.14

[Ajapted]

ZDoom has been able to advance more quickly than other GPL-abiding ports because it is free to incorporate non-free code, such as Raven's heretic/hexen code, or Ken Silverman's build, or use non-free libraries like fmod. It's a double edge sword though, and license-wise it is on very dodgy ground.

As for IGF, the rules are fairly clear about the use of third-party game engines. Trying to get around this with a download script won't cut it. Shame you lost the entrance fee though.

[Apothem]

and they didn't point out this technicality untill AFTER you got to the last couple of rounds? WTF?

[DoomRater]

But yes, let's not give up here. If there's another way to keep it going, I'm all for it.

[skadoomer]

How is it coming along, anyway?

Check out The website for the latest screenshots and news on the mods development. There is a long road ahead and i doubt that it will see another beta build for at least 6 months while i develop the weapons and enemies for the new areas i'm working on.

As for IGF, the rules are fairly clear about the use of third-party game engines. Trying to get around this with a download script won't cut it. Shame you lost the entrance fee though.

I wish i had read and understood those rules beforehand. I was so caught up in the graphics and gameplay requirements the legal issues and lisenses completely slipped my mind. I always assumed free was free, but theis is why lawyers exsist right? Shame on me for not doing my homework on the legal issues. I rember in this thread understanding that zdoom could never be gpl, but upon further reading some of the end lisenses from code zdoom uses (namely the hexen lisense) I'm wonder how applicable this section is from the hexen lisense:

New Game Materials may be created only if such New Game Materials can be used exclusively in combination with the retail version of the Program. New Game Materials may not be designed to be used as a stand-alone product.

So whats the deal? Am i bound to all terms by every lisense that zdoom has because of its deverse code? Right now THAT statement alone crushes some of where i want to take foreverhood (namely a free standalone game) so i feel like this should be clarified.

[Risen]

You all thought I was crazy when I brought it up for KDIZD... this is why I take copyrights and licensing serously.

Awesome job on the project, by the way. You do excellent work.

[DoomRater]

Aftre realizing I'd be babbling about copyright and code I decided to drop that. Anyway, these shots are jawdrop awesome. I still remember being initially excited by the project because it was so unlike Doom or Hexen in feel and flow. I've always had my eye on code and innovation for use elsewhere but this is... quite stunning.

My offer to donate stands.

[skadoomer]

I may be alright on this, pending activisions reply to my concern. I do not know what trouble i could be in, because foreverhood started off as a doom II mod. However, i need clarification on how much of ravens lisense comes into play with the zdoom-hexen format, especially when i'm using their tools (ACC) to build my code for the project. The raven lisense makes it seem like i have to own hexen in order for this to be legal, even though i am not using any of their game content outside of the distributed source code. Here is the full hexen/heretic lisense. Decide for yourself.

My offer to donate stands.

Again, illegial. "Commercial gain" in this case refers to any instance where moneys involved, which would mean any profits made from their software. Even if it is taken as a guift, the cause in this case would be foreverhood, which is bound to numerious lisenses that state the making of money is illegial. I knew that from the begining when i started this thing, and i'm fine knowing that i will never see a penny to my name in terms of what i'm working on with foreverhood. What gets me worried is the mannor in which i can promote my work and get people to play my content, and to what terms am i bound to here. What makes it harder is knowing which technology i'm using in these cases and how much of the lisense i am bound to because of it.