Doom 2 Wad

Discuss anything ZDoom-related that doesn't fall into one of the other categories.

Doom 2 Wad

Postby JangoFett » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:03 pm

Is there any website where I can download the doom 2 Shareware Wad for free? I only want it to see if I should get doom 2. Or have they ever made a Doom 2 Shareware wad?
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Postby Lexus Alyus » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:27 am

Don't think about getting Doom2, just do it, you won't forget it :-). Even ifd there is only a small differance between Doom 1 and 2, the new monsters are really cool and add greatly to the doom universe :-).

:twisted:
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Postby Ultraviolet » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:30 pm

There never was a shareware Doom 2.
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Postby Curunir » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:25 pm

Lexus Alyus wrote:...the new monsters are really cool and add greatly to the doom universe :-).


Holy flying fuzzy dodos!
The new monsters in Doom 2 deserved to DIE A SLOW SLOW DEATH! The Revenant and the Arch Vile added gameplay value only in the original levels, where they were used in reasonable numbers and with some thinking applied beforehand.

"Woo-hoo! Let's make a totally whoop-ass megawad in terms of level design and texturing and totally crap gameplay by placing 300 000 enemies and 20 Cybers and Arch Viles per level (if possible in large open areas) from map 10 on!" Go, Alien Vendetta Team, go! :shock:
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Postby Ultraviolet » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:38 pm

Hey now, um... shut up, you're wrong. The monsters in Doom 2 add a whole new strategic element, a wider range of considerations to take when engaging extremely disproportionate enemy forces.

I think they are very misused, though. In fact, I think the art is a little wacky. I don't think the revenant deserves to be quite that tall. I think the monsters should have less HP in general, be smaller, have lower reaction times and stronger attacks. That would *really* make playing on -fast a reflex/skill centered game.
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Postby Biff » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:42 pm

Hahah, Faint! I think you agree with Curunir more than disagree.
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Postby Ultraviolet » Fri Nov 07, 2003 5:47 pm

Well, if you're talking about the overall opinion... but we're taking points off on the Doom 2 monsters for different reasons. I was saying that the reasons he hates the Doom 2 monsters are the reasons that I like them, but I had some additional reasons to believe that there was room for improvement.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:02 pm

The Doom 2 monsters "filled out" the gap that was present in the Doom 1's monsters' difficulties. I mean, take a look:

Enemy -- Life -- Threat

Zombie -- Couple of pistol shots -- Laughably low
Shotgun Guy -- Couple more pistol shots -- He might actually hurt you if you walk up and try to shake hands
Imp -- Shotgun blast -- Nothing to worry about
Demon -- Two (!!) shotgun blasts -- Just stay out of biting range
Spectres -- See Demons -- A tiny bit more scary in the dark
Lost Soul -- 1-2 Shotgun blasts from close range -- A little risky in numbers. (when they're not busy killing each other) Unpredictable.
Cacodemon -- 2-4 Shotgun blasts -- Slow as molasses and just as stupid. If you do get hit, it hurts.

a one and a two and a SKIP

Baron of Hell -- 2-3 rockets, or about 20 shotgun shots -- Fireballs hurt alot, scratches hurt like hell

a three and a four and...

Cyberdemon -- 2-3 BFG blasts, or about 1600 pistol shots... -- Stay away, or you shall die painfully.
Spiderdemon -- 2-3 BFG blasts, or about 1200 pistol shots... -- About 10 seconds of sustained fire from him and you're toast...

Doom 2 fills in the gap with an actually somewhat dangerous zombie, the scary as hell Pain Elemental (especially in numbers), the revenant and arachnotron, which serve to be more threatening than the Baron although easier to kill, a smaller version of the Baron, the all-powerful Arch-Vile (nicely bridges the Baron-Cybie gap), and of course the boss brain who may or may not be an actual enemy depending on who you talk to.

Let us not forget that Doom 2 introduces two (three?) enemies that completely break away from the primitive Doom 1 AI of "walk, shoot, die" (that is, the Revenant with the tracking missle, the Arch-Vile with enemy resurrection and a timed LOS attack, and the Boss Brain) and an enemy which spawns other enemies as its attack. Suhweeet.

Doom 2 was also more scary on the whole than Doom 1. Who can forget their first encounter with an Arch-Vile, watching the enemies you just mowed through being brought back to life before your very eyes, then being toasted by teh ev1l fir3 of d00m?! Or teleporting out to that ledge on MAP30 and staring at the most ugly demon head you ever saw.... Okay, so it was a really big wall texture. But at the time, it was teh sweet!

Ahh, memories.
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Postby Graf Zahl » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:08 pm

And let's not forget the SS Nazi which didn't really fit into the game! :D
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Postby Enjay » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:10 pm

I think the Doom2 monsters were generally very well done, but it is their usage that is often at fault. I like facing off against the smaller enemies. I have made plenty of little former human only levels for myself (including chaingunners and SSGuys with modified sprites), and they can provide quite a challenge if done well. I certainly don't like wading through hundreds and hundreds of medium-tough to tough enemies all the way through a level and unfortunately, that is often what people seem to like to put in their WADs. I just get bored pumping shot after shot after shot into a bad guy, just to go round the corner and repeat the process all over again.

I have nothing against the big monsters if used well. In fact I think they are fantastic if used well. If a level is meant as a stand alone, I don't mind it culminating in a fight with some "big bad" at the end, and presenting me with quite a few of the tougher guys as I go through the level, even if it is only a single level. That is perfectly appropriate for that kind of WAD IMO.

I don't like getting a megawad and fighting Archies from the get-go, knowing I have another 31 levels of that type, and worse, to go. Some people may like it, but it's not my cup of tea.

One of the enemies I like, but which is often criticised as "cheap" is the Hell Knight. He's big-ish, he looks like a pale baron, his attack is as nasty as the baron's (well, it is the baron's) but he has lower HPs. I've seen a lot of people ask what was the point of making a weak baron, why not put a tougher one in? But to me, the HK fills a gap very nicely. He is a tough imp. He can be used when you want something a bit bigger and a bit scarier, but don't want to go for full blown "boss" enemies. He can provide you with a tough-ish fight, and if he is in multiples, or in a tight space, can be quite dangerous, but he isn't overkill because he is still a manageable, not too tough, enemy.

The mancubus is good because he has that huge weakness of slow speed and high pain susceptibility. He has a nasty attack, but a few SSG blasts and he is pizza.

The archie is good, but highly abused by WAD authors, making me think he is crappier than he is because he is often used so badly.

I like the revenant - when used sensibly. However, too many people think the way to make a WAD fun and challenging is to use them as if they were former humans and throw them in everywhere.

The arachnotron, I can take or leave. But it is "nice" to come up against a plasma gun, and their death sound is satisfying.

Pain Elementals - are a pain.
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Postby Zell » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:34 pm

Enjay wrote:The mancubus is good because he has that huge weakness of slow speed and high pain susceptibility. He has a nasty attack, but a few SSG blasts and he is pizza.


I like putting on godmode and punching the crap out of them-they are the best doom monster in my eyes :P Good point with the arachnatron - can't get enough technology breaking sounds plus the animation for the death look great :D :)
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Nov 07, 2003 6:51 pm

I've always been freaked out by the archvile. Think about it - all they need to do is see you to kill you! Plus, I hate it when I run behind a corner to get out of their line-of-sight, and, moments later, I hear the squishing noise of monsters being resurrected. I'm just thankful they can't resurrect Cyberdemons or Spider Masterminds.

The only monster that I dislike is the Cacodemon. I mean, you've got all these freaky, twisted creatures that look like they came out of a medieval church fresco, and then you've got this big red ball thing with horns on top that floats around slooowly and spits electricity at you (!?). Plus, if you look at the back of those things, they have assholes! Maybe that's how they fly (*poof* zooooom!).

BTW, I've always had trouble punching or chainsawing mancubi and arachnotrons - it's like the game draws an invisible box around them that I have to approach from a certain angle to penetrate. Has this been fixed in any of the recent ZDoom releases?
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Postby cccp_leha » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:25 pm

AFAIK Doom doesn't have a skeletal system or anything, so there's a "box" around every thing in Doom... just some have a bigger one. Someone will explain this better in about 2 minutes after my post, I can feel it.
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Postby HotWax » Fri Nov 07, 2003 7:30 pm

The problem is that the punch/chainsaw attacks are nothing more than very short hitscan attacks. Because of the blockmap issue in which hitscan attacks are only plotted through a single block that an enemy resides in, you have to be in the same block as the center of the enemy. Randy recently fixed this long-standing Doom bug and now you can happily chainsaw very large enemies like the Spiderdemon. We'll just have to wait for 2.0.53....
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Postby Lexus Alyus » Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:39 am

Zdoom releases are like busses, you have to wait ages for one, then when one finally comes, so do a few others... and then long waits again :-D. Aparently, so are bar staff, at least, that's what the punters tell me... (that's my job for those slow ens out there :-D). But back to doom monsters. I think the arch ville can be used wrong, but you gotta admit, they are challenging.

To just beable to walk and be faced with loads of weak monsters is so boring.
To walk and be faced with a weak monster, then a couple of steps be faced with a strong monster, thats a bit more fun.
Lots of strong monsters (not overkill mind) is challenging, but not impossible.

I like hard, but not too hard however, there is a line. I agree with Enjay on the megawad thing, I think difficulty should slowly progress. I get disapointed when you have an archie on the second level. Originally it was something like: Mancubusses = from level 7, revenents = from level 6, archies = from level 16, barons = from level 8, arachs = from level 7, knights = from level 5. That works for me. And I HATE loads of Revenents! but a fair challenge is fun from time to time. Monster placement is largly underused, it would be nice to have an hard level at like 15 or something (like really hard)and then the next level is like piss easy, and then you lay off for a while... like a break. A good thing is great, but too much of a good thing... I suppose my point is with everything in life, not too much of too much :-D.

:twisted:
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