Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussion

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The Ultimate DooMer
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Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussion

Post by The Ultimate DooMer »

Having spotted a post from a while back about some of my projects breaking in newer ZDooms and various other projects that can't be updated on idgames due to archaic permission settings, I thought it's time to discuss and hopefully try to solve this age-old issue.

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As we know, when a ZDoom wad comes out, there's a reasonable chance that a newer version will break something, especially if there's a lot of ZDoom features in it. This isn't the mapper's fault, but is it his responsibility? People leave the community all the time, how are they supposed to know if their wads are broken in the latest SVN build? And should they be expected to monitor the flow of new versions and keep checking them for compatibility with a wad they're likely to have played to death?

(it's only because I sneak in occasionally to see if any good mapsets have been released that I noticed WW's post and decided to mess with Serpent again, otherwise I wouldn't even have known about the big GZDoom changes let alone anything else)

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Which brings me to the next point: there's nowhere specific to find old (G)ZDoom versions. Some might have noticed that http://zdoom.org/files/zdoom/ contains official ZDoom versions from 2.0 onwards (plus two major 1.x builds) but this isn't advertised...you have to click on the latest download and go to the root folder on the server to find it. GZDoom is even worse - there's only a few drdteam.org release threads for newer official versions...and trying the same trick with the root folder on the download server returns a 403. (so no luck there)

Personally I think having an official archive for old (G)ZDoom versions* would go some way to solving the compatibility issues...if a mod breaks in a newer version I see nothing wrong with grabbing an older version that the wad works with, and creating a separate folder on the PC just to play that wad.

* this could be limited to official versions and some key SVN builds, and maybe some specific old builds for really old projects like massm2 etc.

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Finally, on to permissions. The current convention in text files is pretty outdated now ("MAY or may NOT use as a base for modification or re-use") given these kind of issues, and the permissions on my wads are in fact based on an even older convention ("MAY or may NOT use as a base to build additional levels"). Maybe I should update my text files, as I have no problem with people fixing bugs to make the wads work with newer versions (although I'd still have to be the one to upload it) but what about all the other old mods that are broken now? Is it worth making a list and trying to contact the mappers to see if they'd update their permissions? Or just stick to tracking down obscure versions of (G)ZDoom to play them with? (which an official archive would help with)
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Blzut3 »

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:but is it his responsibility?
Generally no. Incompatibilities are typically caused by regressions and should be fixed. There are exceptional cases however, and for many of those we now have a compatibility text file. This basically leaves issues like kdizd 1.1 where a completely ill-formed script slipped past the parser.

I suppose the question is, have the compatibility issues made their way to the bug forum? The longer compatibility issues go unreported the harder they are to fix as well as some other mod may end up depending on the newer behavior.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Graf Zahl »

The Ultimate DooMer wrote:Having spotted a post from a while back about some of my projects breaking in newer ZDooms and various other projects that can't be updated on idgames due to archaic permission settings, I thought it's time to discuss and hopefully try to solve this age-old issue.

I remember the problems I had with the invisible bridge things in 007LTSD. In the old days they were pretty much broken due to incomplete linking into the blockmap. Unfortunately some of your maps had large ones in places where they overlapped other accessible parts of the map and once the engine bug was fixed, blocked some passages.

This was one unfortunate case of an unfixable problem because the blockmap handling is an all-or-nothing proposition. Yes, that means that 007LTSD has problems with more recent ZDoom's that cannot be addressed with a compatibility file.

This mod also prompted me to make the bridge things completely unmovable by sector actions because the same fix caused several lifts and doors to alter their z-position. This solved most of the problems but at least in M6 there were some blocked off corridors.

If I remember correctly this was the only game breaking issue with your mods. (Of course, if you ever decide to fix this mod, it might be a good idea to use some 3D floors instead of Transfer_Heights for some multy-story locations. Some of the train stations had some horrible glitches when viewed from the right position.)
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by wildweasel »

I honestly feel like Super Sonic Doom is the saddest casualty of these issues; if someone were to go through it and modernize the implementation of certain features like the huts, most doors, and a lot of the other gameplay features that are done with Dehacked patches and reskinned Heretic actors, I feel like the WAD would become much, much more playable as a result.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Caligari87 »

While I hate to be one to trod on toes or violate the creators intent, I wonder if there's something to be said for just doing what makes sense after a certain point.

1. If the original author isn't making the changes or updating the mod as needed, are they still around/aware? If they're not around, do they really care that much anymore?

2. If not #1, Is it possible to make "patches" for these mods that can be simply loaded on top of them to fix various issues without altering the original? That way something like Super Sonic Doom isn't overwritten in the archives with someone else's efforts against the creators wishes, but right underneath it is the SSD-GZDoom-fixes patch so players don't have to struggle?

Just some thoughts.

8-)
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Graf Zahl »

The problem is, that the /idgames archive maintainers care. If a mod contains a 'may NOT' clause they'll refuse to allow any updates in, regardless of how broken the mod is.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Caligari87 »

What about the patch option then? Will they block it if it just is intended to load on top of the original without actually changing it? Or does that still fall under the "no derivative works" clause?

8-)
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Graf Zahl »

These people don't care about usability, it's just preservation and strict adherence to stupid rules. If the text file says 'no', it means NO!
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by wildweasel »

Caligari_87 wrote:What about the patch option then? Will they block it if it just is intended to load on top of the original without actually changing it? Or does that still fall under the "no derivative works" clause?

8-)
The most relevant case study I can point you towards is that of STRAIN. This WAD is only available as a 4-part install program, which requires the presence of a complete install of Doom 2 for MS-DOS, and as a result of that and its obvious DOS-only nature, is very difficult to install and run on modern computers from the /idgames version. While "pre-installed" STRAIN WAD files are floating around, /idgames will not accept them as uploads because they breach the "MAY NOT" clause.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Graf Zahl »

Yup, that one's THE textbook example of 'stupid'. It virtually means the mod is completely unusable for 90% of all potential users.
And sorry to say this, I have little to no respect for an attitude that prohibits an update for it that DOESN'T EVEN CHANGE THE MOD!

(Needless to say, its original creators also need to be slapped with a wet fish for even creating such an abomination in the first place. Even back in 1994 there were better ways to distribute large files than this...)
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Athel »

Yeah, I had\have to downgrade to ZDoom 2.2.0 just to use the Doom3Weapons mod with the grabber... in later versions past 2.2.0, the offsets dont work right, thus weapons dont show. I dont think theres another way than to downgrade to the required version, while keeping theatest version somewhere else.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by wildweasel »

Graf Zahl wrote:Yup, that one's THE textbook example of 'stupid'. It virtually means the mod is completely unusable for 90% of all potential users.
And sorry to say this, I have little to no respect for an attitude that prohibits an update for it that DOESN'T EVEN CHANGE THE MOD!

(Needless to say, its original creators also need to be slapped with a wet fish for even creating such an abomination in the first place. Even back in 1994 there were better ways to distribute large files than this...)
Things like this almost make me wonder how difficult it would be to set up a whole new archive dedicated to such cases. It would be an archive not for new works, but for adaptations of existing works that are difficult to fix, and whose authors could not be reached. The utmost care would have to be taken to ensure that the actual work is not compromised (so "rebalance" patches and detail increases would be verboten), and that all credit be given to the original authors where applicable.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Ed the Bat »

wildweasel wrote:Things like this almost make me wonder how difficult it would be to set up a whole new archive dedicated to such cases. It would be an archive not for new works, but for adaptations of existing works that are difficult to fix, and whose authors could not be reached. The utmost care would have to be taken to ensure that the actual work is not compromised (so "rebalance" patches and detail increases would be verboten), and that all credit be given to the original authors where applicable.
I'm already doing exactly this (though the originals aren't AS broken as what we're discussing, usually). I just don't advertise it much, as I'm too shy to try to contact original authors, and feel a bit guilty to have done these revisions without permission (in most cases; some of them do have approval).
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Graf Zahl »

I don't think that ANY author would mind. Most of these people have left Doom mapping 15+ years ago and just don't care anymore. But if someone were to contact them, saying that their old mods are unusable on modern machines no sane person would not give permission.

The only problem here is that some people interpret 'may not modify' in a too literal fashion. Of course the makers meant that they don't want people to change their mod, but certainly not the means of distribution. Only a complete idiot would demand that.
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Re: Old (G)ZDoom versions and project compatibility discussi

Post by Matt »

Graf Zahl wrote:no sane person would
and here was the context in which it was wrote:copyright law
:S

I suppose a well-managed administration that was quickly responsive to DMCA demands should contain some of the damage if/when something went wrong.
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