ZDoom with OpenAL

[Blzut3]

The question now is, how important is working OpenAL support to you and others?

As I understand it BSD users would be able to use OpenAL, but FMod is completely unavailable for their system.

[Gez]

If end-users get a choice between using either FMOD Ex or OpenAL, is it really a problem if OpenAL cannot play MP3 files? On Windows, they'll be able to switch back to FMOD if they need it. Meanwhile, most Doom mods worth playing do not have MP3 files.

[Graf Zahl]

Yes, it is a problem - because it will have one of 2 consequences:

1. People make false bug reports
2. OpenAL may be ignored as being inferior


BTW, projects that use MP3:

ZDoom community map
RTC-3057
A New Hellspawn
KDiZD (1 sound effect only)
UTNT

So it does not only affect some obscure projects nobody knows. And you may discuss all you like: Without MP3 support I won't consider this. I have no idea about Randy's view though.

[bagheadspidey]

1. People make false bug reports

They do, but think of all the times people blame stuff on fmod... this way they'd have something else to compare it to before making bug reports, etc...

2. OpenAL may be ignored as being inferior

I'd use it, especially if it gets a gstreamer backend ;)

What about making fmod/openal/both a compile time option at some point? That way OpenAL would only be available to people who really want it (and maybe svn builds)... so there would be no confusion but it could still get some use / testing?

[Chris]

Reading stuff like this makes DirectShow not appear to be a good solution...

That is disconcerting. :/ But, as I said, gsteamer's own MP3 codec should still be fine. I'll look into how viable it is to build and use on Windows.

What about making fmod/openal/both a compile time option at some point?

They already are. FMod and/or OpenAL can be disabled at compile-time, as of my latest OpenAL patches. Eventually, they're going to be run-time options (eg. so it can build with FMod support, but if the FMod DLL isn't available at run-time, it'll disable it).. OpenAL already is like this, but it's going to take a bit of grunt work for FMod.

[randi]

My comment about supporting patented/proprietary formats applied more to formats which haven't been successfully reverse-engineered yet (like newer WMAs and such)

FMOD uses DirectShow to handle WMA, last I heard. It doesn't have any code of its own to handle it.

FMod doesn't seem to be working here (ZDoom keeps reporting that FMOD::System::init returns 60 or 61 (depending if I try to use "default" or "alsa" respectively), and no other info)

What about "oss" (or even "esd")?

Error 60 is FMOD_ERR_OUTPUT_FORMAT /* Soundcard does not support the minimum features needed for this soundsystem (16bit stereo output). */
Error 61 is FMOD_ERR_OUTPUT_INIT /* Error initializing output device. */

That is disconcerting. :/

That's why you tell people having playback trouble to uninstall their crap and use
Besides, I've never heard of anybody ever having trouble playing regular MP3s with DirectShow.

As for OpenAL, I'm open to including it (if I don't have to deal with it), since I realize that FMOD isn't universal, but I have no personal interest in doing so. I had a look at OpenAL on XP two or three years ago, and it was pretty crap then. Even with Creative's latest drivers, it never supported hardware acceleration, despite being primarily a Creative effort, so it was never better than DirectSound in anyway for me and just felt like a piece of useless bloat. Maybe it's better in Unix land, but it seems pretty pointless in the Windows world.

[Chris]

My comment about supporting patented/proprietary formats applied more to formats which haven't been successfully reverse-engineered yet (like newer WMAs and such)

FMOD uses DirectShow to handle WMA, last I heard. It doesn't have any code of its own to handle it.

So OpenAL would need a DirectShow backend (indirectly, at least) anyway. Though it does give rise to cross-platform issues if FMod can handle formats in one OS and not another (afaik, gstreamer can use win32codecs, so Linux users can still make use of dshow codecs; I doubt FMod would use them).

FMod doesn't seem to be working here (ZDoom keeps reporting that FMOD::System::init returns 60 or 61 (depending if I try to use "default" or "alsa" respectively), and no other info)

What about "oss" (or even "esd")?

Don't have ESD. OSS seems to work, although that takes the only hardware voice I have.. the aoss wrapper causes FMod to fail with FMOD_ERR_OUTPUT_FORMAT again (and I'm using simple 16-bit stereo).

That is disconcerting. :/

That's why you tell people having playback trouble to uninstall their crap and use
Besides, I've never heard of anybody ever having trouble playing regular MP3s with DirectShow.

Heh, yeah. Though I have the K-Lite Codec Pack installed under Wine; not sure which is honestly better, though.

As for OpenAL, I'm open to including it (if I don't have to deal with it), since I realize that FMOD isn't universal, but I have no personal interest in doing so. I had a look at OpenAL on XP two or three years ago, and it was pretty crap then. Even with Creative's latest drivers, it never supported hardware acceleration, despite being primarily a Creative effort, so it was never better than DirectSound in anyway for me and just felt like a piece of useless bloat.

Well, to get accelerated sound with OpenAL, you needed accelerated DSound3D with a minimum of 8 or 16 hardware voices (or native OpenAL drivers; IIRC the SB Audigy and up has those). Under Vista, you'll only get acceleration with native OpenAL drivers since there is no DSound acceleration anymore.

That said, no you wouldn't have to deal with OpenAL as long as it wasn't the only backend. Of course I'd recommend (due to obvious biases) putting more effort into a single OpenAL backend rather than splitting it between OpenAL and FMod backends. But as long as the FMod one is there, you wouldn't need OpenAL.

Maybe it's better in Unix land, but it seems pretty pointless in the Windows world.

Creative's software driver isn't all that great, yeah. Though it emulates EAX to some degree (and providing the equivalent EFX), it's limited to stereo output. OpenAL Soft is a bit different, though. It can handle up to 7.1 output on Windows and Linux, and provides roughly EAX2-level capabilities through EFX (it doesn't have the EAX extensions themselves, but it does have the EFX equivalents), and it's a might bit more user-configurable than Creative's.

FMod isn't all that great in Unix; last I was aware, it couldn't do surround sound and its stuck to its own codecs. It's not well received for being closed source and only-free-for-freeware.

[Graf Zahl]

It's not well received for being closed source and only-free-for-freeware.

That's more of an attitude problem than a real one. Typical Linux!

[morbidtwatt]

ima throw this out here but what about sdl? does it support alot of sound formats?

[Xaser]

SDL-Mixer has proven to be an unreliable bugfest of an implementation that is, unfortunately, not easy at all to work into ZDoom. And I've only gathered this info from previous discussions... it's been brought up before and denied for such reasons.

Besides, it can't support all the filetypes that FModEx currently supports. Not that I have a full list of such, mind you, but the truth is out there.

[Chris]

SDL-Mixer has proven to be an unreliable bugfest of an implementation that is, unfortunately, not easy at all to work into ZDoom.

I think he means just SDL_sound. You can use SDL_sound to load sound files, and another API to play them.. but I don't know what formats it supports, or if it's possible to stream music files with it (ie. whether it can load chunks at a time, or if it's an all-or-nothing deal).

[Chris]

Updated. Mostly just makes sure the SDL output module for FMOD isn't built if FMOD is disabled, but also sets in the groundwork for an environment-based filter. Also makes sure NOREVERB is handled.

[bagheadspidey]

Chris, what's the target zdoom revision for this patch?

[Chris]

Revision 1522, as it says on the .zip filename.

[bagheadspidey]

doh.