Automap Toggle

[Ral22]

Can the automap be turned off in any way shape or form? I want to see what my project will be like with no automap available, and it might add a little difficulty.

Now, I am aware that automap is very useful, but with the direction my project is going, I don't think it'll be very fitting. Plus, I have no intention of making huge, run-back-and-forth key/switch finding puzzles. My levels will be pretty straight-forward and simple.

I have one idea that'll work, but it's a little hack-y. For the betterment of my possible idea not getting removed, I decline to share it.

[FDARI]

You should probably make it very clear that the automap is not meant to be used. Also, if you sabotage its use, make that equally clear. Then... I don't know. You're editing the maps? I think UDMF might let you hide lines and/or sectors. Perhaps just open it in doombuilder, drag a rectangle around every linedef and make it "hidden" or something. I don't know how it affects textured automaps.

And then pray that players forgive you for taking away what was always theirs...

Oh... And are you holding back information of a possible hack / abuse of the engine because you're afraid measures might be taken to prevent it? I find your last sentence a little difficult to parse.

[Ral22]

I'll probably make every line hidden no matter what, whether I remove the automap or suggest it not being used. No matter what I do, it'll be noted in the eventual project thread.

Personally, I'm just making a game I want to make. And my game strays from Doom quite a bit, so I felt that I don't need to be limited by what a Doom mod is "Supposed to require."

Well, I don't consider it an actual hack or abuse, but Graf would. I'm just using the resources available to me for editing ZDoom in the way I want. It's not an actual bug or something along those lines.

[Gez]

Oh... And are you holding back information of a possible hack / abuse of the engine because you're afraid measures might be taken to prevent it?

It is an absolutely pointless thing to do. Once you release the mod, the method used is exposed and can be counteracted.

So, your choices are as follow:
- Make sure that nobody can use features you don't like in your mod by not releasing the mod at all, so that you are the only person to ever play it; or
- Release the mod and accept that whatever hack or abuse you've found will be circumvented if they are deemed annoying.

In either situation, the hack or abuse is made irrelevant so you could as well not use it.



Also, there already exist a countermeasure against disabling the automap. It has been added by Dave Taylor to the original Doom since its earliest officially available version, and it is called "iddt".

[Ral22]

Surprisingly, if I use my idea, it gets around "Iddt."

I will release the mod when it's finished. I've put way too much work in it already to not have it see the light of day. I do have a counter-measure to the counter-measure, but no one is going to like it. So, I won't say it.

Thanks for your guys' time and words, though.

[Nash]

I will submit my DisableAutomap(bool status) ACS function (pass it 1 to disable automap, 0 to enable) to Tower of Babel when I have some time and can get around to it. This function disables the automap function, and when the function is called while an automap is drawn, it closes the automap.

[Ral22]

I will submit my DisableAutomap(bool status) ACS function (pass it 1 to disable automap, 0 to enable) to Tower of Babel when I have some time and can get around to it. This function disables the automap function, and when the function is called while an automap is drawn, it closes the automap.

This is so much cleaner than what I was doing. Thank you so much Nash. I like your perspective to things. Haha.

[NeuralStunner]

Another case of "how do I cripple this thing I don't like"? And this is supposedly a bad trait of Graf Zahl?

You should probably make it very clear that the automap is not meant to be used.

This. If somebody uses it anyway, that's their problem.

I'm one of those people that doesn't have a great memory. Wolfenstein 3D is exremely dull to me for various reasons, but the most notale is its lack of automap making it too easy to get lost. And when I get lost I don't enjoy it. (Blake Stone adde dan AM to the engine and it is awesome.)

If I play a mpa 50 times I can get used to the layout, but the 51st I'm probably going to need the map for something else.


But you can't stand someone "cheating" at your "difficult" mod. As someone who takes measures to make sure methods are not a hack and thus won't change, I have no sympathy for this at all. But by all means, hack away. Someone will find a way around it, probably a developer who's as tired of this drivel as I am.

Nash, I have a lot of respect for you. I don't want to see you get into this hole too.

[Nash]

I implemented the automap disabling for my zombie game so that I can use it in non-interactive/non-gameplay maps (cutscenes, intermission maps, etc) where the automap is not meant to be up. It's really not that big of a deal IMO and I think sometimes the general reaction of people to little game design details like this (which I really see as polish as far as final products go) are a little exaggerated.

Even if I were to develop a game from scratch, using my own game engine which I wrote from scratch, I would have done just the same.

Ultimately Ryan can decide if he wants such a feature in his port or not. If he doesn't want it, then fine. For my game project though, I want it.

[NeuralStunner]

If someone opens the map during a cutscene/intermission, they're going to miss things... and figure out pretty quick not to do that. (Unless they're braindead, in which case they're going to be cheering for the zombies anyway. )

[Ral22]

Well, as I said. I have no intention of making my mod difficult. I don't like difficult games, that's why I haven't beaten Doom 2 on Ultra Violence yet. I just want to make something fun, vibrant, unique and different. You're always free to not play my mod when it's released. It's totally up to you.

On the other hand, when I post up my teaser trailed for my mod, I might change a few minds, but that's a different story.

[FDARI]

I'm sure there is a legitimate gameplay-related reason why I should not use the automap while playing your game, and chances are I will try it out in whatever manner you prescribe. I might not even throw a fit at the point where I think "gee, for some arcane purpose I'd really like to view the automap right now, but it seems he really did disable it." However, I will probably not consider the inability to summon the automap an improvement over my responsibility not to use it; rather the opposite. And I might opt to "fix" the automap if I'm serious about wanting to check something (if so, chiefly for personal use). It is fully possible, even if you don't include your scripts in text form (but please include script source; anything less is Skulltag-closed-source-bad-times).

[Ral22]

I one-hundred percent plan on releasing the mod as open script source. One of the mods I've always wanted to crack open, CIF3, is sadly closed, so I told myself I would never do that to anyone.

Hey, once you download the mod, it's out of my hands. I can't tell you what to do and not do with it. Haha.

I do have some questions for the Doom Community, but I opt not to say them, for both my security and the evade any possible drama. Plus, this is hardly the thread to do it in. Haha.

Thanks for all your help and time, guys.

[NeuralStunner]

I could concede a script function for it if there's a (well-documented) CVar to override it. A little something to discourage the ever-popular "screw with players" mindset that automap hacks are most usually wanted for.

I'd also suggest something per-player and per-map. A simple global on-off switch is overly limited, and too strongly resemble san "anti-cheat" device.