I made this last night in preparation for making more advanced levels. Although this was my first map in 4 years, and my first time using doombuilder2 I thought is was complete enough to share with you guys for being awesome. It's really small though.
Any comments, suggestions, or reviews are welcome....
http://www.mediafire.com/download/lgdvu ... r_Step.zip
It includes a readme to better explain how to play.
A new map :)
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Please read the full rules for more details.
The Projects forums are only for projects. If you are asking questions about a project, either find that project's thread, or start a thread in the General section instead.
Got a cool project idea but nothing else? Put it in the project ideas thread instead!
Projects for any Doom-based engine (especially 3DGE) are perfectly acceptable here too.
Please read the full rules for more details.
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mikenet2007
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:54 pm
Re: A new map :)
I forgot to put an author description in my readme, my name is Mike or Michael. As the screen name suggest hehe
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Sgt. Shivers
- Posts: 1743
- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:39 am
Re: A new map :)
Pretty neat map, I like the little tricks with the windows and railings. I would suggest putting some way to get out of the lava pit, since falling in it means death. Also, maybe put in some more sprite-based decorations?
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Onslaught Six
- Posts: 572
- Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 9:17 pm
- Location: Hell.
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Re: A new map :)
Played the map enough to beat it. Here's some thoughts. Keep in mind, these are just my opinions regarding map design, flow, texturing etc. and shouldn't be taken as absolute word-of-God.
1) Move those Imps out from right at the doorway. Imps are longer-distance monsters; their projectiles are designed to be seen and avoided or ran into. By placing them this way, it's easy for a speedy player to run into the first hallway, get caught up fighting the shotgunner, and then instantly lose half his health from two close-range fireballs that he possibly did not even know were coming. Place them far back in that hallway--way far back--and give the player a chance to shoot at them.
2) You don't need to give your player the shotgun, SSG and chaingun all in the space of five seconds. I realize you're putting them up against two Mancubus in a bit, but giving the player the weapons so quickly is probably going to offset the balance of your WAD in general. If you ask me: Ditch the chaingun entirely, it's too OP for the level (I'll go into why in a second). Move the SSG to somewhere else; don't reward the player for it so quickly.
3) The bridge needs to be made bigger. A player with Always Run on (like myself--because why the hell wouldn't I want to always be running?) can slip off pretty easily. Likewise, the amount of monsters throwing projectiles makes it a little tougher than it should be. The only solution I found to beat it was to hang back and snipe with the chaingun--which is pretty easy to do; the chaingun is 100% accurate on the first shot every time, so if you just keep clicking you'll be able to take out the Hell Knight and Imps from the hallway without ever really being in danger.
4) The Mancubus trap is cheap; it's a monster closet that activates for no reason other than you're walking near the door. Instead, move the key out of their lair and make that the activator for the trap. Doing this makes for a more logical trap--the player has more reason to expect it because a simple "get key -> monsters appear" trap is expected; a doorway opening for no apparent reason is less logical (to me anyway). In addition, the design indicates that the intended route through the level is, indeed, to sit around and snipe off the Hell Knight and his cronies before even attempting to cross the bridge, which is both boring and would be a pain in the ass for speedrunners.
Instead, like I said, move the key out in the open and make that the trap. You can do it with some simple linedefs or you can use ACS (since you're in Doom in Hexen format--weird that you would choose to do so after UDMF was recommended over it in your other thread, but I'm not going to judge) if you don't want to make a sector around the key that basically exists so walking over some linedefs will call up a monster.
5) Swap the Mancubii and demon horde at the end. The Mancubii are big fat dudes and don't work as well in the doorway you have them in, and their projectiles don't work as well in the wider open area you put them into. Meanwhile, the demons just run around in the hole until I blast them to death. The Pinkies will have more room to run around and it'll be more interesting to fight them with the risk of accidentally jumping backwards away from their bites into the lava. Also, move the SSG into the cave that currently houses the Mancubii; it should be a reward for successfully fighting off a horde of demons and a Hell Knight, and help the player take out the rapidly closing in Cacodemons. If you need an excuse for why an SSG would be there, put a dead player or dead shotgunner sprite next to it. (If you ever need an excuse for why a random piece of marine gear or ammo is around, throw a corpse next to it. Problem solved.)
Likewise, ditch the multiple backpacks and spread the ammo out a little more. This will not just make your level more interesting, but it will make it more tense. Fights are more tense (and IMO, more fun) when I'm worrying about counting shells and rapidly wandering around trying to find more ammo while demons are chasing me than when I walk in with 50 shells ready to blow everything to purgatory. Remember, you control the player's pace through the level by how much you give them. IMO it's best if the player is just a hair or two underpowered for the situation, and has to worry more about surviving than killing everything in sight--at least for the time being. (This doesn't apply to slaughterfests or boss encounters.)
6) I don't like using FLAT20 in such large capacities; IMO FLAT20 should only ever be used in very small border capabilities or on the bottom of doors. (Vanilla maps use FLAT20 for the bottom of doors all the time so I just got in the habit of doing so myself.) Likewise, the T_LITE flat in the opening room should come down more or it should be more obvious that it's a separate thing--just looking up in-game makes it look like it's just pasted there. I almost never have any height change that's less than 8 units because any less than that and it's not really worth doing; a casual look-through of the location (which is all a location in most Doom levels should ever warrant) will misread it and think it looks weird and out of place instead of like a normal part of the level. (Also, IMO a T_LITE texture that's "in" a ceiling should actually go "in" the ceiling rather than stick out. Compare:
7) This is a personal thing but I never light "lights" at 255; I always light "lights" at 192 and outdoors at 255. The reason being, sunlight should be brighter than indoor lighting, and also, making your indoor "ceiling" 192 means that generally, your entire level will be darker, and thus, more moody and scary. I think the darkest the level ever gets is 144 and that's not scary at all! Now, if you light a level the way I described, and you find it's too "dark" for your tastes, you can always crank up the brightness slider in your options menu.
Likewise, IMO the level has no real contrast between light and dark areas, it's all this kind of samey brightness. The most effective thing to do is contrast some highly lit areas with some darkly lit ones. Likewise, there's not a lot of interesting height variation--most of the level has very high ceilings and is very open. Try to do some cramped, low-ceiling hallways that open up into and connect through to larger, open rooms where most of the action is. (For example, that room where the imps and Chaingun and SSG are is a great opportunity to add another hallway, which is another chance to add a quick encounter and some ammo/health drops.)
8) Ain't a single zombieman in the motherfucker! Make me fight them first. They aren't usually dangerous no matter what situation you put them in, but they're good ways to keep your player's ammo count in check. Most players will be wandering around with a shotgun or SSG, which has precious little ammo pool--sure, levels are generally loaded with shells, but the player can only carry, at most, 100 Shells, and that's if they found a backpack. Since the SSG is usually the weapon of choice, and it uses 2 shells per shot, they're only getting a maximum of 50 shots. Most players aren't going to switch weapons if they see a zombieman coming, they're just going to shoot at them to kill them--wasting precious SSG shells in the process, a great way to make sure they aren't stupidly over-ammo'd when they run into, say, a pair of Mancubii serving as an end-level miniboss.
9) Minor thing, but I don't like when there's a lot of BIGDOOR doors that reach the ceiling; I prefer to see those inset with the ceiling coming down in front of them, at least a little bit. It works if your area has a very high ceiling and it's the right environment (Doom 1's E1M2 does a pretty good job of using it on the doors to the right of the entrance room) but that's the exception rather than the rule. This is more a personal quirk.
10) I also don't like when I'm given no indication that the level exit is actually the exit. I try to make sure every exit of mine either uses an exit door, has a small exit sign (with the EXIT texture) right above or very near the door, or is using the later Doom 2-style "void in the floor that finishes upon crossing linedef" finish. This is a minor thing, but it can help a player--especially at the end of a very long level, if they see an exit sign or the familiar exit door (which should, as such, only be used for exits!) and they're low on health or ammo, they can make a decision to bum rush to the exit and ignore enemies in the hopes that they scrape by to the end.
This seems like it's a lot to take in (especially on your first map in a long time!) so don't think I'm picking on you specifically or trying to be an asshole; these are just some things that I would have done to make the map flow and look a little better.
1) Move those Imps out from right at the doorway. Imps are longer-distance monsters; their projectiles are designed to be seen and avoided or ran into. By placing them this way, it's easy for a speedy player to run into the first hallway, get caught up fighting the shotgunner, and then instantly lose half his health from two close-range fireballs that he possibly did not even know were coming. Place them far back in that hallway--way far back--and give the player a chance to shoot at them.
2) You don't need to give your player the shotgun, SSG and chaingun all in the space of five seconds. I realize you're putting them up against two Mancubus in a bit, but giving the player the weapons so quickly is probably going to offset the balance of your WAD in general. If you ask me: Ditch the chaingun entirely, it's too OP for the level (I'll go into why in a second). Move the SSG to somewhere else; don't reward the player for it so quickly.
3) The bridge needs to be made bigger. A player with Always Run on (like myself--because why the hell wouldn't I want to always be running?) can slip off pretty easily. Likewise, the amount of monsters throwing projectiles makes it a little tougher than it should be. The only solution I found to beat it was to hang back and snipe with the chaingun--which is pretty easy to do; the chaingun is 100% accurate on the first shot every time, so if you just keep clicking you'll be able to take out the Hell Knight and Imps from the hallway without ever really being in danger.
4) The Mancubus trap is cheap; it's a monster closet that activates for no reason other than you're walking near the door. Instead, move the key out of their lair and make that the activator for the trap. Doing this makes for a more logical trap--the player has more reason to expect it because a simple "get key -> monsters appear" trap is expected; a doorway opening for no apparent reason is less logical (to me anyway). In addition, the design indicates that the intended route through the level is, indeed, to sit around and snipe off the Hell Knight and his cronies before even attempting to cross the bridge, which is both boring and would be a pain in the ass for speedrunners.
Instead, like I said, move the key out in the open and make that the trap. You can do it with some simple linedefs or you can use ACS (since you're in Doom in Hexen format--weird that you would choose to do so after UDMF was recommended over it in your other thread, but I'm not going to judge) if you don't want to make a sector around the key that basically exists so walking over some linedefs will call up a monster.
5) Swap the Mancubii and demon horde at the end. The Mancubii are big fat dudes and don't work as well in the doorway you have them in, and their projectiles don't work as well in the wider open area you put them into. Meanwhile, the demons just run around in the hole until I blast them to death. The Pinkies will have more room to run around and it'll be more interesting to fight them with the risk of accidentally jumping backwards away from their bites into the lava. Also, move the SSG into the cave that currently houses the Mancubii; it should be a reward for successfully fighting off a horde of demons and a Hell Knight, and help the player take out the rapidly closing in Cacodemons. If you need an excuse for why an SSG would be there, put a dead player or dead shotgunner sprite next to it. (If you ever need an excuse for why a random piece of marine gear or ammo is around, throw a corpse next to it. Problem solved.)
Likewise, ditch the multiple backpacks and spread the ammo out a little more. This will not just make your level more interesting, but it will make it more tense. Fights are more tense (and IMO, more fun) when I'm worrying about counting shells and rapidly wandering around trying to find more ammo while demons are chasing me than when I walk in with 50 shells ready to blow everything to purgatory. Remember, you control the player's pace through the level by how much you give them. IMO it's best if the player is just a hair or two underpowered for the situation, and has to worry more about surviving than killing everything in sight--at least for the time being. (This doesn't apply to slaughterfests or boss encounters.)
6) I don't like using FLAT20 in such large capacities; IMO FLAT20 should only ever be used in very small border capabilities or on the bottom of doors. (Vanilla maps use FLAT20 for the bottom of doors all the time so I just got in the habit of doing so myself.) Likewise, the T_LITE flat in the opening room should come down more or it should be more obvious that it's a separate thing--just looking up in-game makes it look like it's just pasted there. I almost never have any height change that's less than 8 units because any less than that and it's not really worth doing; a casual look-through of the location (which is all a location in most Doom levels should ever warrant) will misread it and think it looks weird and out of place instead of like a normal part of the level. (Also, IMO a T_LITE texture that's "in" a ceiling should actually go "in" the ceiling rather than stick out. Compare:
Spoiler:(Mind you, if it were me I'd actually put some more stuff around the outside of it.)
7) This is a personal thing but I never light "lights" at 255; I always light "lights" at 192 and outdoors at 255. The reason being, sunlight should be brighter than indoor lighting, and also, making your indoor "ceiling" 192 means that generally, your entire level will be darker, and thus, more moody and scary. I think the darkest the level ever gets is 144 and that's not scary at all! Now, if you light a level the way I described, and you find it's too "dark" for your tastes, you can always crank up the brightness slider in your options menu.
Likewise, IMO the level has no real contrast between light and dark areas, it's all this kind of samey brightness. The most effective thing to do is contrast some highly lit areas with some darkly lit ones. Likewise, there's not a lot of interesting height variation--most of the level has very high ceilings and is very open. Try to do some cramped, low-ceiling hallways that open up into and connect through to larger, open rooms where most of the action is. (For example, that room where the imps and Chaingun and SSG are is a great opportunity to add another hallway, which is another chance to add a quick encounter and some ammo/health drops.)
8) Ain't a single zombieman in the motherfucker! Make me fight them first. They aren't usually dangerous no matter what situation you put them in, but they're good ways to keep your player's ammo count in check. Most players will be wandering around with a shotgun or SSG, which has precious little ammo pool--sure, levels are generally loaded with shells, but the player can only carry, at most, 100 Shells, and that's if they found a backpack. Since the SSG is usually the weapon of choice, and it uses 2 shells per shot, they're only getting a maximum of 50 shots. Most players aren't going to switch weapons if they see a zombieman coming, they're just going to shoot at them to kill them--wasting precious SSG shells in the process, a great way to make sure they aren't stupidly over-ammo'd when they run into, say, a pair of Mancubii serving as an end-level miniboss.
9) Minor thing, but I don't like when there's a lot of BIGDOOR doors that reach the ceiling; I prefer to see those inset with the ceiling coming down in front of them, at least a little bit. It works if your area has a very high ceiling and it's the right environment (Doom 1's E1M2 does a pretty good job of using it on the doors to the right of the entrance room) but that's the exception rather than the rule. This is more a personal quirk.
10) I also don't like when I'm given no indication that the level exit is actually the exit. I try to make sure every exit of mine either uses an exit door, has a small exit sign (with the EXIT texture) right above or very near the door, or is using the later Doom 2-style "void in the floor that finishes upon crossing linedef" finish. This is a minor thing, but it can help a player--especially at the end of a very long level, if they see an exit sign or the familiar exit door (which should, as such, only be used for exits!) and they're low on health or ammo, they can make a decision to bum rush to the exit and ignore enemies in the hopes that they scrape by to the end.
This seems like it's a lot to take in (especially on your first map in a long time!) so don't think I'm picking on you specifically or trying to be an asshole; these are just some things that I would have done to make the map flow and look a little better.
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mikenet2007
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:54 pm
Re: A new map :)
Imps in my opinion are short and long range monsters, the original game has them everywhere in close combat situations. The idea behind putting the imps there was to catch the player by surprise, doom does this all the time in a number of ways. I don't think doom would be doom without traps and surprises. Even doom3 stuck to this concept with trap doors, and cleaver monster placement."Move those Imps out from right at the doorway. Imps are longer-distance monsters; their projectiles are designed to be seen and avoided or ran into. By placing them this way, it's easy for a speedy player to run into the first hallway, get caught up fighting the shotgunner, and then instantly lose half his health from two close-range fireballs that he possibly did not even know were coming."
The skill level setting will help and takes some of the challenge out of the map if you had some trouble. It added a plasma rifle, and cut down the Mancubi a bit.
Id say this is accurate for large maps for sure, or multi level Wads. You want the player to be able to earn weapons over time of course, but given the small map size I had to equip the player rather quickly. This wasn't intended to be played as a first level to a 10 map wad, it's just a small solo map."You don't need to give your player the shotgun, SSG and chaingun all in the space of five seconds."
Do you remember level 24 on doom 2? " The Chasm" That level had much more narrow bridges than I used. I thought that level was fun and challenging. It did have teleport pads in the slime though so you could get out if you fell."The bridge needs to be made bigger. A player with Always Run on (like myself--because why the hell wouldn't I want to always be running?) can slip off pretty easily. "
The biggest thing I would have done differently was add a teleport pad to get out of the lava, to give the player a way to get out if he messes up. I think Sgt. Shivers made a good point with that, I had considered it. Sometimes in the original game their was no way out the lava and you were basically screwed if you fell in, but most of the time they gave the player a way out.
Thanks for the input, any criticism is welcome, I disagree with you on proper map flow a bit though.
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mikenet2007
- Posts: 340
- Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 8:54 pm
Re: A new map :)
Your idea about the light is a good one, although I've seen it done both ways.
Re: A new map :)
Nice, fun little map and a good re-entry into mapping. 
I'm going to answer some of Onslaught Six's points because he has made comments on most of the areas that I noted as I went through.
Personally, I'm happy for imps to be used as melee ambush or distance fireball throwers. I think that they work as both.
The central corridor, however, to me is a classic "release a horde and have the player back off (with enough room to do so) while dealing with them" situation. The horde could be a bit bigger and a little more threatening but in a small MAP01, it doesn't need to be particularly big.
Backpack in the final room right beside the exit switch in a room that is difficult to enter until you have already killed everything in there? Unless you plan on providing equipment for a second map, there is no reason to give the player that backpack in that position.
I wasn't too bothered about the lava being inescapable. If you fall in, you die. That, to me, is acceptable. Maps where you fall in to an inescapable pit and don't die are annoying. Of course, a way out would be even nicer. The player having to carry the damage taken from falling in to the lava would be a suitable punishment for his mistake.
The map does look a little bare. A bit more detailing or object placement (without going over the top with it) could easily improve on this.
Wow, what a lot of commenting on such a small map.
I'm going to answer some of Onslaught Six's points because he has made comments on most of the areas that I noted as I went through.
Actually, I really liked the positioning of those imps. Perhaps that's because I dealt with the shotgunner then ran through the door and turned around while thinking "I bet there's something beside the door".Onslaught Six wrote: 1) Move those Imps out from right at the doorway....
Personally, I'm happy for imps to be used as melee ambush or distance fireball throwers. I think that they work as both.Agreed, the ammo room meant that most of the weapons and pickups in the map don't really have to be worked for at all. There is no exploration to get them. They are just there, waiting for you right near the start of the map. That is just about OK in a map that is little more than a boss arena but this map isn't one. Spreading the weapons, ammo and health out around the map would be much better IMO.Onslaught Six wrote: 2) You don't need to give your player the shotgun, SSG and chaingun all in the space of five seconds...
Not sure about this one. The room was big enough that some of the enemies were quite far away and therefore required either accurate shooting or running towards to tackle them. (I sniped everything using the chaingun from the starting area before running over the bridge because I expected a trap of some sort as I crossed the bridge.)Onslaught Six wrote: 3) The bridge needs to be made bigger...
Putting the blue key outside would indeed make it a better trap IMO. I think that I might also make the playform a bit bigger and give the mancubi more room to move (perhaps two doors). It was easy to take on the first mancubus while he was still in the doorway. The prevented his buddy getting out and becoming a danger to me. Foolishly, however, I didn't check what was going on behind me and I did get caught out by a cacodemon fireball. A rookie mistake on my behalf.Onslaught Six wrote: 4) The Mancubus trap is cheap; it's a monster closet that activates for no reason other than you're walking near the door...
I disagree. If you give the mancubi a little more room (as suggested above) I think that they are pretty much perfect for that platform ambush. Their size and the ferocity of their attack means that they can dominate the platform and can make the air space dangerous by filling it with fireballs even if you choose a retreat.Onslaught Six wrote:5) Swap the Mancubii and demon horde at the end...
The central corridor, however, to me is a classic "release a horde and have the player back off (with enough room to do so) while dealing with them" situation. The horde could be a bit bigger and a little more threatening but in a small MAP01, it doesn't need to be particularly big.
I agree that FLAT20 works best as a detailing texture rather than blanketing an area with it.Onslaught Six wrote:6) I don't like using FLAT20 in such large capacities; IMO FLAT20 should only ever be used in very small border capabilities or on the bottom of doors...
I didn't think the lighting was too bad but I do like the basic principle of "outside is brightest" that Onslaught mentioned (even though I often break the rule myself). Basically, I thought the comments were fair enough but that the lighting was already reasonable.Onslaught Six wrote: 7) lighting issues
Can't say that I particularly missed them but, yeah, they weren't there and can be used tactically from a mapping perspective as Onslaught suggests.Onslaught Six wrote: 8) Ain't a single zombieman in the smeghead!
Agreed. This stuck out to me more than the lighting actually. It's a "mistake" most mappers have made - I know that I certainly have, many times. Putting doors into little alcoves a bit lower than the room/corridor that they allow access to makes them look much better IMO.Onslaught Six wrote: 9) Minor thing, but I don't like when there's a lot of BIGDOOR doors that reach the ceiling...
Agreed. I like to know that I am about to exit the map. Exiting without announcement can be simply disappointing. It can also be frustrating. Often, if I get to a clearly marked exit, I may decide to go back and "mop up" the level before committing to that final switch (etc). If I don't know that I am about to activate the end of play, I can't do that.Onslaught Six wrote: 10) I also don't like when I'm given no indication that the level exit is actually the exit...
Backpack in the final room right beside the exit switch in a room that is difficult to enter until you have already killed everything in there? Unless you plan on providing equipment for a second map, there is no reason to give the player that backpack in that position.
I wasn't too bothered about the lava being inescapable. If you fall in, you die. That, to me, is acceptable. Maps where you fall in to an inescapable pit and don't die are annoying. Of course, a way out would be even nicer. The player having to carry the damage taken from falling in to the lava would be a suitable punishment for his mistake.
The map does look a little bare. A bit more detailing or object placement (without going over the top with it) could easily improve on this.
Wow, what a lot of commenting on such a small map.