[WIP] The Shores of Zdoom

[Eriance]

Several of the me-too monsters are going away in TSoZD in favor of new ones. I will not spoil it any more than I may already have.

[wildweasel]

Keep in mind the KDiZD SSG is a wee bit slower than the vanilla Doom 2 version. In effect, the Hell Warriors can't get stunlocked by sustained SSG fire as it would happen with the Doom 2 SSG.

@Eriance: KDiZD has monsters like Hell Knights (they should have a different name considering they sound more like weaker barons!), Hell's Fury, Hell Warriors, goats and stupid mechanical demons which ask for a SSG!

Eh...as long as the SSG gets either a mild damage nerf or a bit of a speed decrease (or both?) it might not be so bad.

[.+:icytux:+.]

wildweasel: Heh, I'm on the team and i've actually tried to get the SSG outa there exactly because of the things you mentioned. Though it seems like its so loved that most of the team wants to keep it. However I'm definitely going to keep an eye on the SSG balancing in this one because I won't be easily satisfied!

[wildweasel]

Oh, hey, do you guys need a sound guy? I'd like to help out this time, since most of my work for KDIZD was thrown out...

[Zippy]

I use the standard shotgun pretty frequently in Doom 2 maps. Most prominently, it's very useful for long-range sniping.

I think the problem is more related to the overabundance of shotgun shells. Shells are pretty much the most common form of ammo in many, many, many, way too many maps. There's little reason not to spray SSG fire with abandon. You could use one shell and snipe that guy with the regular shotgun. Or you could also use 6 shells for 3 SSG shots to the same effect and it doesn't matter, there's boxes of shells laying around. Additionally, the chaingun, rocket launcher, and plasma gun all snipe better than the shotgun, so I always find little reason to try and use the shotgun to do so. I actually never use the regular shotgun once the SSG has been acquired. That's how I've always played for a long, long time now, even on Ultra-Violence where you'd think map authors might cut back on your ammo supply a bit, but no... I still find I can hose down 3 zombies via SSG at medium-far engagement ranges with 10 shells used and it doesn't matter, I'll still exit the map with 100 shells.

[wildweasel]

Yeah, that's the biggest problem the SSG presents - since the player is assumed to want to use the SSG very frequently, the ammo pickups for shotguns are very common (statistically even the most common ammo type in the game, even above bullets). It's a vicious cycle really - there's tons of shells because the SSG is widely used, but the SSG is widely used because there's more ammo for it than for anything else.

This'll be a bit off-topic, but I'd like to challenge some more experienced Doom mappers to make a map or set of maps that contains no shotguns whatsoever.

[Big C]

The shotgun in DooM 1 was more balanced. It was intended to be a step up from the pistol, little more. It could reliably one-shot imps and allowed you to grind away at anything bigger.

Shotgun shells were balanced fine for the single-barrelled shotgun. It was designed to be a backup weapon. Then iD went and made a short-ranged genocide cannon that used the reliable backup weapon's plentiful ammo. :V

To compound the problem, DooMguy moves so fast and the chaingun burns its ammo away so quickly that it's often more economical to charge to short range and start dancing with the double shotty.

P.S. @ WildWeasel: Your title should say "Are you a bad enough MARINE to save the President?".

[Virtue]

the SSG is total overkill in deathmatch, 1 shot and you're dead. I never found it overpowered in singleplayer however, it did make the normal shotgun redundant but i always found the SSG good for "grinding away" at enemies, especially Barons and upwards. I agree with people saying that it makes the normal shotgun totally irrelevant, especially in doom2 where you get in on the second level ffs, bye bye shotty, never to be used again all game lol. id shouldve added more weapons to doom2 damn it!

[Vader]

I still use the shotgun very often even when the SSG is around. I usually try not to waste ammo, so the regular SG is perfect for getting rid of single Imps or Zombies, finishing off bigger monsters and sniping at monsters on ledges or in windows etc.
As Zippy already mentioned, the huge amount of available shells is often the reason that the SG isn't used anymore.

I also think it's more statisfying to use the SG on smaller monsters... kind of hard to explain, but it feels wrong for me to use the SSG on a single Imp!

Either way, the SSG will most propably be included in TSoZD. The Rifle and GL on the other hand are unlikely to make it into the mod!

[Gez]

I use the shotgun slightly more than the sawed-off, unless the map only features hell knights and tougher beasties.

The SSG is a very satisfying weapon. Its optimal use is at close range, so you can kill a revenant or cacodemon with just two blasts, an arch-vile or hell knight in three. But close range is dangerous, as it gives you a lot less time to dodge or reach cover when the monster starts its attack sequence. So successfully killing a mob of big, tough monsters with the SSG and without getting a scratch makes you feel like you're an awesome ninja marine. It's kinda like berserk-punching stuff, except a bit easier.

But the basic shotgun is sleeker and more elegant. And it's always great when you kill a chaingunner with a single shot, or a demon with two.


By the way, the grenade launcher is a very interesting weapon to use because of its tactical uses (shooting above a wall or down a chasm, timing the shot and trajectory so it'll detonate when an enemy passes nearby)... And since KDiZD, there's now added features that can be used to make it a lot better.

[esselfortium]

Perhaps! But there might be something else interesting to take the grenade launcher's place.

[Marnetmar]

Great, to be honest the grenade launcher in KDIZD wasn't very satisfying to shoot.

[esselfortium]

I never much bothered with it, either.

On the subject of weapons and monsters, we've been pretty heavily discussing what to retain from KDiZD, what is totally superfluous cruft that can be cut out, what can be added, and what purpose everything will actually serve for the gameplay.

[wildweasel]

Hey, my offer to help with sound effects still stands, as long as you guys aren't against Creative Commons sources for some reason (can't imagine why you would be).

[KingShinra]

I never much bothered with it, either.

On the subject of weapons and monsters, we've been pretty heavily discussing what to retain from KDiZD, what is totally superfluous cruft that can be cut out, what can be added, and what purpose everything will actually serve for the gameplay.

From my end:
-Keep the Rifle from KDIZD
-Add Grenades/Pipe Bombs or the such.
-Perhaps add an Unmaker? (Since E2 Incorporates a semi-hell look to it?)