GVHv2 - Beta 7 Released!

[Cutmanmike]

Only the selected testers can test.

However, that was a fun experience... I feel we've balanced most things out now. This is good!

[.+:icytux:+.]

yep, im so gonna play this alot when 97E comes out

[_DaRk_]

All right, testing done. What do we can say about it? Plenty of things for sure

First, balance is a lot better than inthe first tests that were done. The JitterSkull is a lot more enjoyable than he used to be, he's now a lot more used The other ghouls are more deeply into their speciality, Sjas is good when it comes to distract the oponents, his abilites can kill any class given the right circumstances The Creeper is extremely weak and requires more accuracy in it's attacks, which makes it a very good class, if helped by two Jitters distracting the target

As for the humans classes, well, they are great. The marine has, in my opinion the most usefull equipement, he can kill any Ghoul if he doesn't do any mistake. Plus his grenades can reveal Creepers hiding ;P . The hunter is the sniping class, which requires a good aiming, he's a good class in open areas where he can see the threats coming . The Cyborg is powerfull, especially in corridors and kill a Jitter in seconds if he's spreading the plasma good enough . His flying abilities helps against Creepers in most cases but can't save you from a sneaky Jitter or a skill Sjas

As it was mentionned during the testing, environments take a huge part in balance. Small cramped and dark maps will give a big advantage to teh Ghouls, however opened and bright areas will make the humans extremely dangerous. I think I'll work on a map to see how I could take advantage of Ghoul classes and Humans ones.

I forgot one point, the TITLEMAP. It's simply amazing
I guess this project is close to be released

[CaptainBighead]

Well? When exactly does it, and the new skulltag, come out?

I want to make an expansion ...but... I need to know a program that can make AND compile global scripts outside of maps (Samara Pics.)

[Cutmanmike]

Should be out by the time the new ST is out, which is... I dunno

[CaptainBighead]

So SlumpEd can compile scripts... How?

[Cutmanmike]

Post a topic on the editing forum and find out

[XutaWoo]

Oh hey, I see you fixed the transparency issue with Jitterskull in the wad, but it's still broken ingame. It now looks like he's in a multicolor box with a black outline. It also still breaks everything else's transperency, but sometime doesn't for a few tics.

[Zippy]

Alright, here's what I got from this play session, though a lot is going to be echoes of above.

Balance is very much improved. At this point I don't feel I could make a strong recommendation of a balance change. The balance is close enough to perfect that I'm afraid any tipping of the scales could make things worse.

As it stands, my certainly biased opinion of things (so whether you decide to work with this info or not is up to you, I'm not recommending you do anything):

Sjas feels to me to be the easiest of the ghouls to pick up and play. A lot of speed, a strong attack, the ability to hide, and he flies. Straightforward, and powerful. To me he feels to be the strongest of the ghouls, as his need to get close to attack isn't a terribly huge weakness. Then again, in those levels with openness and lack of sufficient obstacles, he did feel very weak also, so I don't know.

Jitterskull is certainly much better with the ability to refine movement. I noticed you were setting traps with it, and it was working to great effect. His movement still takes a moment to get used to, but can provide a huge advantage when you figure it out. I would put him on the same level as Creeper.

Creeper is also now much more balanced. The players who really succeeded with him were the ones who played stealthy or picked off players during moments of panic and confusion. There wasn't much of any Creeper overpowering entire squads anymore. Nice.

I can't say much specifically about the Marine and Cyborg. They seem to do their things well now. The marine starts with a good spamability that quickly runs down as you lose your machine gun rounds and grenades, and then he's all careful aiming and timing. With the Cyborg it can be hard to nail the ghouls with his weapon, but he seems to make up for it with his movement and damage.

Hunter is very much improved and highly useful now. I would still kind of place him behind Marine and Cyborg, but not by all that much. Since he is significantly changed I guess I should probably go over him in depth:
I can't say regular arrows are useful in any way. Yeah, you can switch to them a bit faster and fire them faster, but compared to the extra effect of the magic, they still felt lacking. The only time I ever used them was accidentally, when I spawned and immediately fired to frantically defend myself. This is just an out of the blue idea, but maybe instead of having arrows as his ammo, make it magic? Regular (infinite) arrows would then become his fallback weapon (maybe make them weaker too?) and magic would be his ammo for the other arrows.
Fire arrows are very nice, and felt like the most useful of the bunch (I used them more than ice or lightning arrows). The explosive damage is particularly useful against the Creeper since it removes the need for precision aiming. Now if you see the Creeper before he gets you, you actually have a way to defend yourself.
Ice arrows certainly had times when they were handy. The spread shot again removes some of the need for precision aiming, though this time more effective for Sjas and Jitterskull under certain circumstances.
Lightning arrows were usually only useful in maps with open areas. The railgun shot makes them ideal for sniping since there is no travel time. Still, once you had a area where you could make use of them, they were a big boon. Particularly when you got a free chance to snipe while a ghoul was otherwise occupied with another human (or thought they were hidden from view).

The environment has become the most important gameplay balancing factor. Some maps simply flow with all the ghouls strengths, while others accentuate their weaknesses. I'm going to once again utter the words that you probably don't want to hear: this issue can probably be best addressed with a custom map pack for GvH.

Last Man Standing seems to really be the gamemode of choice. In Deathmatch, I feel the ghouls still have a slight advantage. Any ghoul can one shot any human, but the chaotic nature and random placement of deathmatch hinders humans in combining their firepower to fight back. Last Man Standing, however, gives the humans a much better shot at organizing and fighting back against the ghouls. The hunting and hunted style of the mode also simply speaks to the theme of GvH humans itself.

Here are some things you may want to know about or address:

• Changing magic types with the hunter still takes ammo. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but it is kind of annoying because you permanently lose an arrow.
• I can still see the sprite cutoffs with the hands when changing hunter magic. Not too much of a big deal because you have to specifically be looking for it to catch it in all the action.
• When you run out ammo with the hunter, it doesn't seem to be immediately obvious. Feels like there should be more of an indication (lowering the bow some) than just the 0/30 in the corner. Attempting to fire without arrows feels more like unresponsive controls than like you are out of ammo.
• There's no way to know what type of magic you have active without firing a shot or attempting to change magic (both of which can take ammo up). Didn't feel as bad as before now that the magics are separate weapon slots, but an indicator of the current active magic might still be nice.
• The hunter's magic change appears to be offensive? There was one time I killed Wills when he was about to Creeper me by simply changing magic (not by attacking).
• The Marine's weapons being on different slots is much better. Feels weird spawning with the pistols, his fallback weapon, though. Maybe start it on the shotgun instead.

Lastly, and out of your control, some fixes to Skulltag would be nice. The team switching bug was gone, but there was a bug where after playing for awhile every time I respawned I would respawn over either a copy of myself or someone else, so there was a lot of exploding ghouls or human corpses flying around at the start of every round because of bizarre telefragging.

It could definitely be released as is if you wanted to Cutty. Nice work.

[XutaWoo]

Oh hey, about today: Does anyone think Cyborg is overpowered on the first few maps or was I just doing well at the start? I don't know if I should report how he gets 30 frags while the other humans get 10-ish per match.

[Wills]

I agree with everything everyone else has said. I forgot to mention though, in the opening title credits it's very dark at first so you can't see "Cutstuff Presents" or whatever it says. It gets bright for the intro, though.

[XutaWoo]

I just thought of some fun "achievements" for this:

LEEEEROY JENKINS! - While your team is in a group, rush off only to have the remainder of your team killed at once.
Cyborg Fury - In TDM, be a cyborg and score 90% of the frags for your team.
Indecisive - Run out of arrows as a hunter because of constant arrow switching.
Did You See That? - Destory a ghoul by switching arrow types.
Shagfajklfhakshfaksf - As a Creeper, cause a TLMS match to drag on by hiding in a place that makes you impossible to find.
They'll Never Expect This! - As a Sjasface, open and close a door below you 20 times in a row in an attempt to get a human's attention.
Perfronter - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Marine.
Sharpshooter - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Hunter.
Mega Man - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Cyborg.
DEATH METAL - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Sjasface.
Hunger - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Jitterskull.
Whisperer - Get a 10-frag killing spree as a Creeper.
Doom 3 AHOHOHO - As a human, win a match on a dark map.
Happy Happy Day - As a ghoul, win a match on a bright map.
More Than Apes - Win a match with each human class.
BARGLE - Win a match with each ghoul class.
Split Personality - Win a match with EVERY class.

and finally

The Melty Shadow - Kill all of the humans in 5 matches in a row as a Creeper without dying.

[KeksDose]

Yeah, the random things I noticed, or whatever view I have from anything:

After a good test with every ghoul, I can safely say, they all can escape the map. Be it the Jitterskull with his really weird wallclimbing ability, the creeper with his small radius and height, or Sjas with the ability to fly. Eventually, that map escaping became of strategic use, such as players thinking that the creeper really went into this window, but then he comes out of the other window again, from the behind. But that doesn't help the fact that long corridors, very open, bright and grassy planes are nothing for the ghouls to live on. Nowhere to hide, nowhere to start a stealthy sneak attack and

The Jitterskull was as bulky as ever, but then the Altfire kicked in, which made up for some pretty cool strategies and tricks. Slowly move around a corner and see a big pit: The Jitterskull can simply "switch to that side". I also almost fell for one of those, where I followed a Jitterskull. Since you never know what those ghouls are looking at, you have to expect the unexpected: That Jitterskull almost ate me! When I thought it was around the corner, it suddenly jumped out of the nowhere! Yep, the Jitterskull seems like a tactical weapon now.

The Creeper is much more balanced now. Strong enough to not die of one shot, but not strong enough to wipe out a whole team of humans on his own. The creeper is now supposed to be used as a rather stealthy class, and not as a enemy base rampage weapon (like that nickname it had a while ago, weapon of mass destruction). If you use him really carefully, you can see others and others can't see you: Gray sectors, deep water effects, corners, wells, ornaments on walls, and so on and so on. He's really flexible, however, if you really intend to storm the enemy with him in "those fucking siege maps", like that 8-shaped map we played on, you already lost. Did I already mention a trick with the Creeper? If you're really damn good in the air, try to jump on a Jitterskull while it attacks: You get thrusted into the most unusual places ever.

Sjas is awesome. Hide in the darkness, hide in skies, hide everywhere, as long as it allows for it's size, and as long it isn't so bright that Sjas is something along the black sheep. The explosion radius is good enough to land a kill on a short distance now. He can be used for both hunting and ambushing, but better be sure of landing a hit with his scream: You can't really quattro-super-double-whopper kill anymore.



The humans seem to be much stronger now. I really like it... the humans actually won many times! They especially dominated in the open maps.

The Marine... he's still a class with good controls. His stronger throw can easily pick off any ghoul. Throw a grenade around the corner, throw one into unusual places, throw one into windows, throw one into the details where the Creeper could hide, etc. The Marine is definitely the Creeper's worst nightmare, since the Creeper isn't fast enough to escape such a grenade.

The Hunter is definitely more useful now. First off, I'd like to say that weapon switching as the Hunter is amazing. I remember I jumped at someone playing the Sjas class while switching weapons... hot damn, "%o came too close to %k's magic", that is what I saw, I really killed a ghoul by switching weapons! Well, OK. The ice arrows are really good, as they spread into three directions. If you have a rather uncareful aim, you can still hit a ghoul. The lightning arrows are like the old fire arrows: A railgun shot. That's where the long corridor story comes in again. Ghouls stand almost no chance to a Hunter when this Hunter is in a bright, long corridor with his bow ready to fire a lightning arrow. And the fire arrow seems to be a stronger version of the normal arrow. That was a pretty damn good enhancement made here. Pretty. Damn. Good.

The Cyborg didn't seem to change much... he can still fly, fire gigantic plasma balls of death and recharge in a quiet place. He can also escape maps, just not as professional as the ghouls do.



We mostly played Team LMS again, and we started on "That fucking siege map" if I recall correctly. A ghoul doesn't seem to be able to triumph over a human camping in an exit room., but a human simply can't expect to be screamed to death by a ghoul when simply walking into a corner.

For the games we played, a few things were hilarious, some were pretty dumb (mostly done professionally by me, as in seeing a marine wanting to enter the teleporter which I'm standing behind from, but which I entered about a half second earlier, resulting in a telefrag.). It really needn't be a scarefest all the time... playing that can be damn funny, especially escaping maps and doing random shit. This is also known as "A few screenshots of the spectacle":

---

The Jitterskull on the freaking castle walls. That's where it was nicknamed "spiderskull"... I really didn't expect to be thrown up there.


That was a rather cool scene to watch.


The Creeper decided to escape the map and climb up those stones here.

And all I can now say is, that this mod is pretty damn fun now. Nicely balanced, and if you know what you're doing, no class against any other class can be called cheap.

[Cutmanmike]

Changing magic types with the hunter still takes ammo. Don't know if this is intentional or not, but it is kind of annoying because you permanently lose an arrow.

Whoops, this isn't intentional. I'll fix that.

I can still see the sprite cutoffs with the hands when changing hunter magic. Not too much of a big deal because you have to specifically be looking for it to catch it in all the action.

Like I said on aim I could NOT fix this. If anyone wants to have a go feel free. It just seems to ignore sprite offsets I set in Slumped.

When you run out ammo with the hunter, it doesn't seem to be immediately obvious. Feels like there should be more of an indication (lowering the bow some) than just the 0/30 in the corner. Attempting to fire without arrows feels more like unresponsive controls than like you are out of ammo.

I'll make a "You got no ammo!" sound like the cyborg.

There's no way to know what type of magic you have active without firing a shot or attempting to change magic (both of which can take ammo up). Didn't feel as bad as before now that the magics are separate weapon slots, but an indicator of the current active magic might still be nice.

I think I'll do this now I'm not feeling lazy

The hunter's magic change appears to be offensive? There was one time I killed Wills when he was about to Creeper me by simply changing magic (not by attacking).

See below about this.

The Marine's weapons being on different slots is much better. Feels weird spawning with the pistols, his fallback weapon, though. Maybe start it on the shotgun instead.

Good idea.

The team switching bug was gone, but there was a bug where after playing for awhile every time I respawned I would respawn over either a copy of myself or someone else, so there was a lot of exploding ghouls or human corpses flying around at the start of every round because of bizarre telefragging.

This is a classic ST bug that still isn't quite fixed. It happens when there aren't enough start spots for all the players. Don't worry though, you don't lose your life if this happens during lms.

... hot damn, "%o came too close to %k's magic", that is what I saw, I really killed a ghoul by switching weapons!

Did it actually say that or display it correctly...?

The Creeper decided to escape the map and climb up those stones here.

I actually SAW you up there one time (might have been someone else), and I tried to fly over as the cyborg to catch you but it was a no go. What the crap?


Now there's one thing I feel I should ask. As some of you noticed, changing weapon with the hunter creates a blast radius of damage. I thought I took this out because it would make the creeper easier to dispose of. What do you guys think? Should I leave it in or not?

[.+:icytux:+.]

i agree with pretty much everything everyone have said. im really, i mean, really, amazed how balanced this came out to be, its not like one class is better than another, all is as good, just with diffrent tactics and stuff.

i can only say that when this hits the stores, it will be

All out awesome, my second cumming.