[YourFeedback] "The Torment & Torture Series"

[Tormentor667]

Okay guys, in addition to the following thread:
http://forum.zdoom.org/potato.php?t=9398
...I thought about adding another one to increase the quality of the "Ultimate Torment and Torture", because this is going to be the last TNT release ever and this time, everything must be perfect Okay, here we go, what is this thread all about?

"The Ultimate Torment & Torture" (short UTNT) includes 3 new maps of TNT4 and for sure all the other parts of the famous series, TNT1, TNT2, TNT3 and even TNTLE. Every single map can be improved in terms of gameplay, in terms of visuals and in terms of overall quality and surprises, and that's were I need honest TNT fans, that give me some detailed and helpful feedback on each of the maps while I'm revamping them. The questions are posed very open, so feel free to write everything you have in mind

1) What did you like about TNT1?
2) What did you hate about TNT1 and how would you improve this?
3) What special thing (eastereggs, surprises, new areas, new monsters, whatever you have in mind) would you like to see in a revamped TNT1?

4) What did you like about TNT2?
5) What did you hate about TNT2 and how would you improve this?
6) What special thing (eastereggs, surprises, new areas, new monsters, whatever you have in mind) would you like to see in a revamped TNT2?

7) What did you like about TNT3?
8) What did you hate about TNT3 and how would you improve this?
9) What special thing (eastereggs, surprises, new areas, new monsters, whatever you have in mind) would you like to see in a revamped TNT3?

10) What did you like about TNTLE?
11) What did you hate about TNTLE and how would you improve this?
12) What special thing (eastereggs, surprises, new areas, new monsters, whatever you have in mind) would you like to see in a revamped TNTLE?

13) On a scale from 1(baby easy) to 10(ridicolous hard), were would TNT1,TNT2,TNT3 and TNTLE be?
14) Did you like TNT3's flamethrower? Would you like to have another new weapon and/or the flamethrower be accessable more often?

Well, 14 questions should be enough for now. Everyone who's a big TNT fan or even hates TNT can make himself useful by trying to answer as many questions as possible. Some answers might be included as they were proposed, some other answers might give me some new ideas that could be included and maybe other answers won't be incorporated, but well... I'm wide open for anything useful you have in mind

Oh and please, don't tell me that often how bad TNT's gameplay always was (too hard, not enough health/ammo), this is something I WILL improve while revamping the maps, so don't worry about that too much

[Graf Zahl]

Let's get to the important things:

2) Choice of monsters in this map was far from optimal and concentrated too much on the stronger monsters. Most importantly, get rid of the Stealth-ArchViles!
5) There are 2 problems with this map: The arena fight takes far too long and there isn't enough ammo in this map. Make the arena fight last 2 minutes at most because after that it gets repetetive and boring - not to mention frustrating. Furthermore, no Revenants in an open arena. Their homing missiles are an absolute nightmare!
8) The biggest problem in this map is the performance issue caused by the snow. Gameplay is good in general here although I'd suggest to replace the Revenants in the mine with other monsters and to get rid of the Stealth Demons there.
11) The map is way too hard and frustrating. It starts on an insane level and constantly maintains this. The huge crowd of monsters after jumping down from the first part is the worst part though. It's just a random collection of each and every monster without any point. Since there is no cover the fight depends too much on luck rather than skill. The last part isn't that bad because you aren't forced to fight the hordes of hell you unleash.

13) TNT1: 8, TNT2:9 TNT3: 6+7, TNTLE:12 (sorry, a scale of 1-10 is insufficient here!)
14) Please keep it. It was a nice addition to the maps.

So it mostly comes down to balancing the gameplay as you said yourself! In terms of architecture and overall design these maps already are quite good and I hope you don't alter them too much.

[Tormentor667]

Thx alot for some of your answers, this will surely help me during the re-developement of gameplay issues.

Concerning 2) I didn't even know that there are some stealth arch-viles in TNT1... well, no more, looks like I have already removed them.
Concerning 5) this is something I already thought. I will enhance the whole arena fight, make it shorter and not that hard at all.
Concerning 8) well, that seems to be a real problem (as with TNT4 Map02 - meteors) but removing the snow will totally destroy the atmosphere that's for sure. How could I improve the performance here? Revenants is another typical OPEN AREA problem, I will change that!
Cocnerning 11) I will think about a alternative solution for this huge crowd of monsters in the lava pit but I am not really sure, if I remove the overall hardness of the map, because it was supposed to be insanely hard without any breaks or slowdowns.
Concerning 14) Fine, it will be kept, but what about another weapon? Or even placing the flamethrower in other TNTs?

[Marasu]

I think Ill take Graf Zahls approach.

2. Gameplay was unbalanced. It was hard in the annoying way. Stealth monsters and facing difficult monsters right off the bat were especially a problem.
5. The gameplay was really horrible. Really really horrible. Boring repetitive and uncreative IMO. The revenants in an open area are ok I guess.
8. Steath monsters suck.
11. Best gameplay out of the bunch. Hard but tempered. Monsters however were a bit haphazard as Graf Zahl stated.
13. TNT1: 7 TNT 2: 7 TNT 3: 5 TNT LE: 8

Mind you Ive never really been a huge fan of the TNTs but input is input.

[Bio Hazard]

As you probably already know. Co-op co-op co-op.
I can do lots of testing from sat-tue every week with a friend of mine.


All these ratings are based on my experience on skill 1, mostly in co-op.

4) The atmosphere was nice. Good use of textures
4) I liked how you revisit areas to get to new places.
4) Co-op friendly (from what I remember)
5) Hard monsters too soon.
5) Very low on ammo (but I kinda like that)
5) Needs co-op checkpoints.
5) UGLY SKY!!! UGLY SKY!!!

7) OMG SNOW! I LOVE SNOW!
7) The music was fitting.
7) I liked the locations.
7) Hardly any co-op problems.
8) Desperate need for co-op checkpoints.
8) UGLY SKY!!! UGLY SKY!!!

10) The music was energizing, great for a high action map.
10) The action was almost nonstop.
11) Co-op is near-impossible due to the setbacks (easy fix)
11) The arena fight SUCKED.
11) The gates of hell are broken on skill 1.

13)(all on skill 1) TNT2: 6 TNT3: 8 (need saves) TNTLE: 9 (but still fun )
14) I never really used it so I don't care.



I could go through 2-LE and record demos pointing out stuff if you want.

[Tormentor667]

Thx both of your for your answers, but I still need more feedback that doesn't concentrate on the balance of gameplay, because I already know that it is bad

[Graf Zahl]

Concerning 8) well, that seems to be a real problem (as with TNT4 Map02 - meteors) but removing the snow will totally destroy the atmosphere that's for sure. How could I improve the performance here?

Assign a different range of tids to each outside area and enable the script for this area when the player is entering and disable when the player is leaving. That should reduce the time needed for this.

About the meteors, even though it most certainly harms the visuals of the level, you should add an option to switch them off. They can totally kill the performance on slower systems. Some people (including myself) actually prefer smoother gameplay over such effects.

Cocnerning 11) I will think about a alternative solution for this huge crowd of monsters in the lava pit but I am not really sure, if I remove the overall hardness of the map, because it was supposed to be insanely hard without any breaks or slowdowns.

If you make it all play as one consecutive game the map isn't that bad. At least put a megaarmor near the start because that makes the beginning much more enjoyable.

Concerning 14) Fine, it will be kept, but what about another weapon? Or even placing the flamethrower in other TNTs?

I wouldn't put it in TNT1 and 2 but in LE and 4 it should be available as well.
I don't thing other weapons are necessary. Maybe some Hexen flechettes with grenade sprite replacements.

[Deathsong12]

Concerning 14) Fine, it will be kept, but what about another weapon? Or even placing the flamethrower in other TNTs?

Better yet, give each TNT it's own new weapons. As much as I love these maps, I always find myself playing them with weapon mods.

[Bio Hazard]

Thx both of your for your answers, but I still need more feedback that doesn't concentrate on the balance of gameplay, because I already know that it is bad

The only thing wrong with it is gameplay. The map geometry is really great already.

I always find myself playing them with weapon mods.

[Graf Zahl]

BTW, regarding the skies I have to agree with BioHazard. The skyboxes in TNT2 and 3 are truly ugly as is the non-cave skybox in LE. Keep the cave but for the others even a regular sky might be preferable. Warping liquids as ceiling just don't do it.

[Graf Zahl]

Concerning 14) Fine, it will be kept, but what about another weapon? Or even placing the flamethrower in other TNTs?

Better yet, give each TNT it's own new weapons. As much as I love these maps, I always find myself playing them with weapon mods.

Uhh, no! These maps are still Doom and should use Doom weapons. Besides, this is for ZDoom 2.0.98 which means no custom weapon support.

[ace]

1) The better question is as to what I didn't like. And the only thing I really didn't like is that because it was the first obviously it wasn't as detailed or heavily scripted as its successors.

2) I wasn't too fond with the arch-viles in the libraries. That and again it was shorter than its successors. But neither of those are a big enough problem to be worth changing.

3) Make the NewDoom logo a secret, as well as a logo for here and Doomworld perhaps? And maybe more advertisement spam for one of your other upcoming levels, a la TNTLE. And I think having the MRW monsters is a must too, though you've probably already considered that.

4) The theme of it, really. You don't see too many lava/cave-themed levels nowadays.

5) Gameplay, I agree. I think the thing that killed it for me was the super-reinforced zombies (black chaingunners and machine-gun zombies). Those just. Wouldn't. Die. After several shots. They really were the worst part I think. I agree with the elongated arena battle, the lack of ammunition. The revenants didn't bother me oddly enough.

6) Eh, probably MRW again.

7) Theme again. Especially the snow and fog, and then the caverns, and finally hell. Good theming. Yep.

8) Everybody loves stealth monsters, right? ...Right? (Hint: no.)

9) Perhaps a minor tweaking on the end spiders' health, they weren't too unbelievably unbeatable, just really too far long-winded a fight.

10) Much more detailz0r. Excellent skybox. And best of all, Matrix fighting music. What more could I ask for? Oh yeah...

11) ...much, much easierer gameplay. It was damn near to impossible to beat. Very un-fun gameplay. I think the arena part was actually a bit of relief, because you could rely on infighting and then take the stragglers out. Then it went downhill again... I also wish it had had as much scripting as 2 and 3. It was very underutilized as compared to the last two. Anticlimactic endings aren't fun either.

12) Ammo by the portal and some boss to come out of it. At least then it would have more point to it at the end.

13) I'm afraid to say that it would be slightly unfair for a person such as I to rate anything on difficulty, because I am a less-than-average skilled Doomer. I pretty much had to make several attempts to beat them (with LE being an exception, I never could) on ITYTD. 'Nuff said. But if I could go by which of those took me longer/more attempts to beat, I guess it'd be 1:8, 2:9, 3:6, 4:583.

14) I loved it! The only problem was it wasn't bound to any key so once it was gone it was unretrievable to my knowlege... I wouldn't mind seeing another weapon or two, but I could not for the life of me suggest an idea.

[Deathsong12]

Uhh, no! These maps are still Doom and should use Doom weapons. Besides, this is for ZDoom 2.0.98 which means no custom weapon support.

Nuts. Looks like I'm doing the same thing on the new versions as I did on the old.

[Graf Zahl]

That's your choice. Remember: There are players who actually like Doom's weapons (myself included.) I'd hate to be forced to play a WAD with a more or less shitty set of replacements. That's ok for a TC but only there.

[Marasu]

That's your choice. Remember: There are players who actually like Doom's weapons (myself included.) I'd hate to be forced to play a WAD with a more or less shitty set of replacements. That's ok for a TC but only there.

Agreed. Theres nothing wrong with Dooms weapons at all. Replacing them might (no probably will) deter me from playing the wad.